Firefly Episode Discussions

Serenity: It's Never Easy Comic - read it here

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BYTEMITE

Wednesday, May 9, 2012 4:24 PM

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There is a big difference between taking away River's quirkyness and truama, and making her sane.

Unless the reason she isn't sane is involuntary brain surgery and trauma.

She couldn't even take just medicine to reverse any of that all the way - they're shown helping in War Stories, but she's still... Well, word salad. This is a little beyond even just brain chemistry cocktail, we're talking brain damage here. Even if we weren't trauma doesn't just go away. PTSD is a psychological disorder, someone who has it by definition isn't sane, and the only way to get rid of it completely would be to get rid of the trauma. Instead, you deal with it. You put one foot in front of the other and you hold on as best as you can to where you are now, not where you were then. But you can't escape the memory, it's always there, just as vivid as when it originally happened.

So something intangible like confronting the Miranda secret is NOT going to cut it. It's lazy storytelling, it's these contemptible epiphany therapies that ignore the real world issues and consequences to turn plot and characters around on a dime.

I'm arguing about maintaining an actual realistic portrayal of mental illness, not applying an easy fix and moving on. Otherwise I'm pretty sure the storytelling and characterization would suffer for it.

I'm with Riona, if Zack and Joss continue to write River realistically, then I give them major credit. But if they fix River so they can turn her into a one girl psychic genius army with loads of romantic flings while the crew sits out on the sidelines, which is pretty much the inevitable end result we're talking here, that'd be pretty bad.

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If the writer givers her faults and frailties, and shows that she is still dependent on others, then no.

River becomes sane. What frailties and faults does she have left? She is a psychic super soldier trained in infiltration who could take on anything the Alliance sent at her by predicting their every step two moves in advance and kill thirty people violently resisting her in a closed room 15 feet wide by 15 feet long. There isn't anything she couldn't handle on her own anymore at that point. The only thing that could take her down would be an army, but she wouldn't put herself in a position to be facing off against an army.

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Even if she is still touched, as it was put, she can still be written as a sue. All it takes is those moments of clearity to come at the right times.

True, but it becomes much less likely if you give her abilities some kind of downside or interference.

Here, an example from the supplemental material. In one of the stories in Still Flying, River does try to warn Zoe and Wash that something is going to happen to him. I see a lot of indications that River is trying to prevent something she's foreseen, like in Better Days, Down Time, and The Other Half, and that something is probably the character deaths in the movie.

Imagine if you will that River can successfully communicate all problems that might be coming the crew's way with no problem, because she's now completely sane, and she's no longer inhibited by her fear due to the trauma she suffered at the hands of the alliance. Everything always works out for the crew.

Boring.

Imagine if she can tell them everything clearly, but everything happens no matter what because they can't fight fate.

Pointless.

Imagine if she can't tell them, no matter how much she tries, and she tries her best to stop it on her own, and she can't.

TRAGIC. And well characterized. Then it becomes not just about River and her abilities, but the group effort to understand and fight, and maybe reverse the bad outcomes. Her abilities are in balance with the rest of the crew, and the rest of the crew have an opportunity to shine and determine the course of their own fates.

RIONAEIRE

Thursday, May 10, 2012 12:10 AM

Thank you Byte!

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

M52NICKERSON

Thursday, May 10, 2012 2:54 AM

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Unless the reason she isn't sane is involuntary brain surgery and trauma.

She couldn't even take just medicine to reverse any of that all the way - they're shown helping in War Stories, but she's still... Well, word salad. This is a little beyond even just brain chemistry cocktail, we're talking brain damage here. Even if we weren't trauma doesn't just go away. PTSD is a psychological disorder, someone who has it by definition isn't sane, and the only way to get rid of it completely would be to get rid of the trauma. Instead, you deal with it. You put one foot in front of the other and you hold on as best as you can to where you are now, not where you were then. But you can't escape the memory, it's always there, just as vivid as when it originally happened.

So something intangible like confronting the Miranda secret is NOT going to cut it. It's lazy storytelling, it's these contemptible epiphany therapies that ignore the real world issues and consequences to turn plot and characters around on a dime.

I'm arguing about maintaining an actual realistic portrayal of mental illness, not applying an easy fix and moving on. Otherwise I'm pretty sure the storytelling and characterization would suffer for it.

I'm with Riona, if Zack and Joss continue to write River realistically, then I give them major credit. But if they fix River so they can turn her into a one girl psychic genius army with loads of romantic flings while the crew sits out on the sidelines, which is pretty much the inevitable end result we're talking here, that'd be pretty bad.

I think you are way off saying that people who suffer from PTSD are not sane. They may not be in perfect mental health but they do have their facilities. So in that regard you are also way off on my meaning. I simply do not think that post Miranda River has to psychotic breaks, or leave reality. That does not mean she will be mentally fine, it only means she will not be random soup in hair stabbin' crazy.

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:River becomes sane. What frailties and faults does she have left? She is a psychic super soldier trained in infiltration who could take on anything the Alliance sent at her by predicting their every step two moves in advance and kill thirty people violently resisting her in a closed room 15 feet wide by 15 feet long. There isn't anything she couldn't handle on her own anymore at that point. The only thing that could take her down would be an army, but she wouldn't put herself in a position to be facing off against an army.

You are reading a hell of a lot into things. How do you know she is trained in infiltration? True she does have an affinity for hiding on ceilings, but other then that we never see her sneak into a place.

You are also wrong about what could take her down. She is not super girl. She is extremely good an hand to hand combat. She was not going against trained soldiers. I doubt she could handle much more then two Operatives. She is also not bullet proof, nor is going to start dodging bullets.

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:True, but it becomes much less likely if you give her abilities some kind of downside or interference.

Again that all depends on the writer.

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:Here, an example from the supplemental material. In one of the stories in Still Flying, River does try to warn Zoe and Wash that something is going to happen to him. I see a lot of indications that River is trying to prevent something she's foreseen, like in Better Days, Down Time, and The Other Half, and that something is probably the character deaths in the movie.

Imagine if you will that River can successfully communicate all problems that might be coming the crew's way with no problem, because she's now completely sane, and she's no longer inhibited by her fear due to the trauma she suffered at the

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BYTEMITE

Thursday, May 10, 2012 4:53 AM

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I think you are way off saying that people who suffer from PTSD are not sane. They may not be in perfect mental health but they do have their facilities.

The amount that a person with PTSD is affected can vary a lot, but it's a problem no matter how bad it is for them. You're kind of downplaying how serious this is.

In order to be diagnosed with PTSD a person has to be so bad off that it impacts their day to day functioning and relationships. The definition of PTSD is lingering anxiety that affects their behaviour, emotional stability, and judgement and which can spike into serious psychotic episodes and panic attacks.

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I simply do not think that post Miranda River has to psychotic breaks, or leave reality. That does not mean she will be mentally fine, it only means she will not be random soup in hair stabbin' crazy.

Explain how this makes ANY kind of scientific or medical sense. Her limbic system and the moderation of her dopamine levels has been DAMAGED, and even dopaminergic medicines don't restore the balance.

How does getting the Miranda secret out restore her capacity here? Please propose another mechanism as to why River acts schizophrenic that does not involve her dopamine levels or her limbic system and would otherwise have been fixed by Miranda.

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She is also not bullet proof, nor is going to start dodging bullets.

It's confirmed she's precognitive, so yes, she is.

Now, how in the black did she get onto Early's ship and hack into Serenity's intercom from there without infiltration training? More than that what use is she as an ASSASSIN if she has no infiltration training? Maybe the alliance intended for her to murder people on the street in broad daylight.

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I don't thin she can predict future events. I can accept she can sense what others are feeling. I might be able to take that she could sense somethings. Of course that does not mean she can sense everything and with perfect accuracy, even if perfectly sane. The extent of that ability, or lack of it, is up to the writer.

Enjoy ignoring canon then. It's pretty obvious we won't come to terms on this.

M52NICKERSON

Thursday, May 10, 2012 11:44 AM

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
The amount that a person with PTSD is affected can vary a lot, but it's a problem no matter how bad it is for them. You're kind of downplaying how serious this is.

In order to be diagnosed with PTSD a person has to be so bad off that it impacts their day to day functioning and relationships. The definition of PTSD is lingering anxiety that affects their behaviour, emotional stability, and judgement and which can spike into serious psychotic episodes and panic attacks.

I'm not downplaying it's seriousness, I'm saying I would not call a persopn suffereing from PTSD insane.

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I simply do not think that post Miranda River has to psychotic breaks, or leave reality. That does not mean she will be mentally fine, it only means she will not be random soup in hair stabbin' crazy.

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Explain how this makes ANY kind of scientific or medical sense. Her limbic system and the moderation of her dopamine levels has been DAMAGED, and even dopaminergic medicines don't restore the balance.

How does getting the Miranda secret out restore her capacity here? Please propose another mechanism as to why River acts schizophrenic that does not involve her dopamine levels or her limbic system and would otherwise have been fixed by Miranda.

How does a making a precongnitive assasian partly by stipping someone's amygdala make sense? It is called fiction for a reason.

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
It's confirmed she's precognitive, so yes, she is.

We see one example. So even if she is, that does not mean she is going to be able to tell the crew every event that will happen. No one really knows how her powers work. A good writer will use that. It could even be worjed in that as she gets better, her powers seem to get weaker.

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Now, how in the black did she get onto Early's ship and hack into Serenity's intercom from there without infiltration training? More than that what use is she as an ASSASSIN if she has no infiltration training? Maybe the alliance intended for her to murder people on the street in broad daylight.

I'm sure Kaylee could have hacked into the intercom system also. I don't think she has infiltration training. Plus River was taken from the Academy before her training was complete. We don't know what kind of other training she had or not.

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Enjoy ignoring canon then. It's pretty obvious we won't come to terms on this.

I will, thanks!

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

BYTEMITE

Thursday, May 10, 2012 3:41 PM

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I'm not downplaying it's seriousness, I'm saying I would not call a persopn suffereing from PTSD insane.

Fine. They have a mental illness that affects their judgement. If they commit a crime during a panic attack or psychotic episode, they can plead insanity.

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How does a making a precongnitive assasian partly by stipping someone's amygdala make sense? It is called fiction for a reason.

You HAVE to care about explanations in fiction, YOU WRITE FICTION. Readers have to be able to follow the story, and inaccuracies will knock the readers out of their immersion, and they'll lose interest.

Frankly, the answer to your question can be found in actual human experiments that the NSA and CIA have performed that were accidentally leaked in the family jewels reports.

They found that conditioning training through electroshock therapy and subliminal messaging was very effective, and that victims would execute commands despite the techniques they used turning the victims into psychological wrecks. So I hardly think that's the issue here, and I'd hardly put this past reality.

Where you might be closer to objecting is that stripping the amygdala results in psychic abilities, being that psychic abilities are nonsense.

My explanation is that River was sensitive to electrical fields and impulses in the first place (which is all neurons and brains are anyway), even at long distance, and that what they did to River altered and enhanced her perceptions and sensitivity so much that she could pick up even the smallest neuron impulse like a blip in the electrical field that a human produces. So feelings from other people, she picks them up and her altered amygdala translates that into emotions that she can recognize, and apparently other parts of her brain were modified to do the same for memories. So she experiences those impulses like they were her own. As for the precognition, that's actually probably easier than anything else as that most likely just uses logic, but you could also apply advanced science and say it's a quantum electrical effect, as on a quantum level the future can actually measurably impact the present.

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A good writer will use that. It could even be worjed in that as she gets better, her powers seem to get weaker.

Hmm. Okay, that's actually not a bad idea. Really the only problem I see with it is the improbability that she would ever get better based on what appears to be available in the 26th century, what the crew has, or what they could reasonably steal. But, if you're ignoring the amygdala issue anyway, then that's not going to matter to you.

M52NICKERSON

Thursday, May 10, 2012 6:36 PM

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Fine. They have a mental illness that affects their judgement. If they commit a crime during a panic attack or psychotic episode, they can plead insanity.

Temporary insanity. A small distinction, but an important one.

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
You HAVE to care about explanations in fiction, YOU WRITE FICTION. Readers have to be able to follow the story, and inaccuracies will knock the readers out of their immersion, and they'll lose interest.

Frankly, the answer to your question can be found in actual human experiments that the NSA and CIA have performed that were accidentally leaked in the family jewels reports.

They found that conditioning training through electroshock therapy and subliminal messaging was very effective, and that victims would execute commands despite the techniques they used turning the victims into psychological wrecks. So I hardly think that's the issue here, and I'd hardly put this past reality.

Where you might be closer to objecting is that stripping the amygdala results in psychic abilities, being that psychic abilities are nonsense.

My explanation is that River was sensitive to electrical fields and impulses in the first place (which is all neurons and brains are anyway), even at long distance, and that what they did to River altered and enhanced her perceptions and sensitivity so much that she could pick up even the smallest neuron impulse like a blip in the electrical field that a human produces. So feelings from other people, she picks them up and her altered amygdala translates that into emotions that she can recognize, and apparently other parts of her brain were modified to do the same for memories. So she experiences those impulses like they were her own. As for the precognition, that's actually probably easier than anything else as that most likely just uses logic, but you could also apply advanced science and say it's a quantum electrical effect, as on a quantum level the future can actually measurably impact the present.

I do care about explanations, and I think they should be as real as possible. At some point the story becomes more important then the reality of the explanation. For science fiction many times that explanation is better left vague.

For River we know the Alliance preformed surgeries on her brain. Simon says they stripped her amygdala as part of those surgeries. Now what they were doing remains a mystery. We are not eve sure what their end goal was. We know River and the others were trained in combat. We know River had psychic abilities before the Academy. (R. Tam Sessions) I think it safe to bet the Alliance was looking to enhance those. Many have gone with the conclusion she was going to be a psychic assassin. That may be, but she could also have been plan to use as a spy, or multiply rolls. It could even be that the Academy did not have a true idea of what they would be used for. One thing that is clear is that having a half insane psychic anything would not be overly useful. Doctor Mathis says they are working to increase she cogent moments.

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Hmm. Okay, that's actually not a bad idea. Really the only problem I see with it is the improbability that she would ever get better based on what appears to be available in the 26th century, what the crew has, or what they could reasonably steal. But, if you're ignoring the amygdala issue anyway, then that's not going to matter to you.

I disagree. As I said we know they Academy was working on increasing Rivers coherent moments. If for nothing else to make her more useful. Also the physical trauma to her brain was not random, it would have been very precise. We can see that even with what Simon says she can control her emotions sometimes. Fighting a room full of Reavers tends to require a person to push back, or use fear.

I'm not ignoring the amygdala issue at all. I just don't think it is the end al

BYTEMITE

Thursday, May 10, 2012 9:42 PM

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It could even be that the Academy did not have a true idea of what they would be used for. One thing that is clear is that having a half insane psychic anything would not be overly useful. Doctor Mathis says they are working to increase she cogent moments.

It's never actually mattered WHAT the mental state of the dominant personality was, so long as they could flip the switch and have an easily controlled and completely obedient sleeper agent at the ready.

Which is pretty much exactly what River is.

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I disagree.

...About...? I said that I thought that might be a good compromise.

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We can see that even with what Simon says she can control her emotions sometimes.

Huh? You've lost me.

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Fighting a room full of Reavers tends to require a person to push back, or use fear.

I actually think that after River was triggered that first time, she became aware of the programming or maybe even an entire alternate split personality. The knowledge or the other personality merged with her dominant personality when she became aware of it, so she could then use all her martial training consciously as River.

M52NICKERSON

Friday, May 11, 2012 2:03 AM

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
It's never actually mattered WHAT the mental state of the dominant personality was, so long as they could flip the switch and have an easily controlled and completely obedient sleeper agent at the ready.

Which is pretty much exactly what River is.

What the point of even having triggers? The whole point would be to have someone that could fit in and lead a somewhat normal life that could be triggered when needed.

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:...About...? I said that I thought that might be a good compromise.

I disagree that it is improvable that River would ever get better.

quote]Originally posted by BYTEMITE:Huh? You've lost me.

Simon states in Ariel that River feels everything, all of the time because of what they did to her, specifically to her amygdala. We know that is not really correct but we will go with it because maybe Simon is working from future knowledge. That being said we in fact see River able to push back and control her emotions. Perhaps the Academy was trying to re-wire her brain and make it work in a different way. Much like hacking a computer.

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:I actually think that after River was triggered that first time, she became aware of the programming or maybe even an entire alternate split personality. The knowledge or the other personality merged with her dominant personality when she became aware of it, so she could then use all her martial training consciously as River.

Again not a bad idea at all. That what is great so many things are possible. In that same vein the joining of of that other personality could also be a route which helps River get better.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

BYTEMITE

Friday, May 11, 2012 3:00 AM

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What the point of even having triggers? The whole point would be to have someone that could fit in and lead a somewhat normal life that could be triggered when needed.

Well... Yes and no. That was probably the ideal, but it rarely ever turned out that way. The very methods used to condition and install those triggers tends to be very psychologically damaging. We're talking medically induced comas with endless subliminal messaging on repeat and electrodes to the brain.

And that's when they aren't doing horrific stuff on the SIDE with the victims, like sexual abuse. Which also happened.

Coming out of those places... they weren't ever normal after that. Lot of them snap, kill people or commit suicide, or they go off the deep end in other ways, long slow self-destruction via drugs (sometimes the same drugs used on them, out of addiction), or internalization of the abuse and perpetuating it in secret against vulnerable sorts, kids and such.

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Simon states in Ariel that River feels everything, all of the time because of what they did to her, specifically to her amygdala. We know that is not really correct but we will go with it because maybe Simon is working from future knowledge. That being said we in fact see River able to push back and control her emotions.

I think maybe that was meant to have multiple meanings, though maybe not all that Simon would realize. I think how much she can control her emotions depends on the circumstances and medicating influences, early on before Simon really has an idea what's wrong with her and what to give her she's kind of all over the place. But even the medicine isn't quite enough to reverse the other schizophrenic tendencies, the breaks with reality, reduced self-awareness, the world salad. Objects in space is kind of a good example of what River can be like when her PTSD isn't really bothering her, but she's still kind of in and out. At first she's wandering around the ship pretty clearly hallucinating (seeing true things, but hallucinating), later on she outsmarts Jubal Early.

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That what is great so many things are possible. In that same vein the joining of of that other personality could also be a route which helps River get better.

A split personality is a different problem from limbic system damage. But yes, people can fix problems, or not, in whatever they they think works for their story.