You believe Muslims are scary, dangerous people

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AURAPTOR

Sunday, February 26, 2012 4:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I'm going to give rappy a chance to respond. I'll wait until this evening.

Please condense and clarify the question, if you can.

Thanks.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

SIGNYM

Sunday, February 26, 2012 5:07 PM

What is it, specifically, that YOU would find troubling about living under Sharia law?

OONJERAH

Sunday, February 26, 2012 10:53 PM

Signym: "I would like you to read the above statement closely, as it provides the justification of the US invasion of Iraq."

That post is so interesting, evocative, it deserves it's own thread.

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
What is it, specifically, that YOU would find troubling about living under Sharia law?

Sorry to step in before Auraptor replied.
Living under Sharia ... difficult question, I'm not versed in that law.

As a woman with Agnostic leanings, Sharia law would choke me. I wouldn't be able to bow toward Mecca five times a day;
some of that time, I'd be sleeping. Covering my face and dressing chastely would be OK. Would I be permitted to mess around
on my computer all day to the exclusion of practical matters such as house work? Or is a diligent cleanliness required?
I'd be an infidel, subject to execution. Probably I wouldn't say so. Loss of freedom of speech - very hard to take.
Alcohol & street drug prohibitions: mostly wouldn't affect me.
What movies would be legal? Would I be allowed to watch Firefly?

How about living under Christian law?
There are people who honestly believe that the USA was founded and defined by an all Christian council; that it was always
intended to be a Christian country, and we should become that. They argue that separation of church and state was foolish;
continuing it is wrong. Such folks are prone to quote the Old Testament, apparently having little use for the New Testament,
which teaches a quite different philosophy.

(To me, the Old Testament is a warped, mistranslated verson of the Jewish Torah. I have often wondered why it is part of the
Christian Bible, guessing that it gives the history of Jesus' family, his ancestors.
The Torah: The law of God as revealed to Moses and recorded in the first five books of the Hebrew scriptures. Hebrew word
meaning "teaching", "instruction", or especially "law".)

Given we're living under Christian law ala the Old Testament, which is harsh, one of the first things we'd do is try, convict,
and execute the gays, probably by stoning. Adulteresses would no doubt be stoned; male adulterers would get a pass.
Meanwhile, I'd be screaming that Christian law must go with the New Testament, which preaches compassion, because the word
of Christ must be the word of God. In this, I would be lying, as I do not believe that any book can be the word of God,
nor is any ordinary human being wise enough to interpret God's will. I would simply want to curtail the stonings until we might
return to a saner law.

Personal responsibility is the Truth.
Self determination triumphs over reaction.

AURAPTOR

Sunday, February 26, 2012 11:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
What is it, specifically, that YOU would find troubling about living under Sharia law?

Everything. Literally.

From the bowing to having to acknowledge the existence of an imaginary god... seriously, why even ask such a question ?

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

OONJERAH

Monday, February 27, 2012 12:53 AM

If the Moslem God, called Allah, is imaginary ...
Is the Christian/Hebrew God, called Jaweh or Jehovah, also imaginary?

Personal responsibility is the Truth.
Self determination triumphs over reaction.

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Monday, February 27, 2012 1:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
What is it, specifically, that YOU would find troubling about living under Sharia law?

I think its difficult to imagine living somewhere where the rules and codes were so different. We've all been conditioned to our way of life.

In response to some of the objections to sharia law, it is my understanding that it is sometimes confused with the type of law that exists in Saudi Arabia, a very strict form of Islam that grew out of this area, known as Wahhabism. It is clear that Sharia differs widely from region to region, and that what influences it is the regional customs. Hence women in Afgansistan might cover their whole body, whereas elsewhere a headscarf might surfice. I am not even sure that sharia requires women to be covered at all, but that men and women should dress modestly. As far as I am aware, there is nothing in sharia law which prevents women from working, driving, voting, holding office of government, as indeed many Muslim women do throughout the world. As usual with religion, it is all in the interpretation.

sharia influences law in countries to various degrees. Not all Muslim countries have pure sharia as per wiki

Quote:
Spectrum of Muslim legal systems

The legal systems in 21st century Muslim majority states can be classified as follows:

Sharia in the secular Muslim states: Muslim countries such as Mali, Kazakhstan and Turkey have declared themselves to be secular. Here, religious interference in state affairs, law and politics is prohibited.[46] In these Muslim countries, as well as the secular West, the role of sharia is limited to personal and family matters.

The Nigerian legal system is based on English Common Law and the constitution guarantees freedom of religion and separation of church and State. However eleven northern states have adopted sharia law for those who practice the Muslim religion.[47]

Muslim states with blended sources of law: Muslim countries including Pakistan, Indonesia, Afghanistan, Egypt, Sudan, Morocco and Malaysia have legal systems strongly influenced by sharia, but also cede ultimate authority to their constitutions and the rule of law. These countries conduct democratic elections, although some are also under the influence of authoritarian leaders. In these countries, politicians and jurists make law, rather than religious scholars. Most of these countries have modernized their laws and now have legal systems with significant differences when compared to classical sharia.[48]

Muslim states using classical sharia: Saudi Arabia and some of the Gulf states do not have constitutions or legislatures. Their rulers have limited authority to change laws, since they are based on sharia as it is interpreted by their religious scholars. Iran shares some of these characteristics, but also has a parliament that legislates in a manner consistent with sharia.[49]

So it can be said that sharia infuences laws in some country, just like the Christian Judeo system influences western systems of law.

The least useful discussions and comments here lump all Muslims and all Muslim countries in together, when they vary as much as countries that call themselves Christian or holding Christian values. I think it is fear of the unknown that make people do this, however it is not helpful. Islam is not a unified religion, it is deeply divided. I would agree however, that there has been an increase in fundamentalism in the Muslim world, but the west bears some responsibiity for this. This discussion has been had before.

Of course i don't condone those kind of laws that treat women as second class citizens, that use amputation, flogging, or stoning to death as punishment. I condemn torture and capital punishment everywhere, even in the united states. In china, it is possible to receive the death penalty for any number of offences,

Quote:
tax fraud have routinely appeared among the dockets of those receiving the death sentence, as have drug offenses, corruption, property theft. Capital punishmen

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MAGONSDAUGHTER

Monday, February 27, 2012 1:36 AM

Just also to observe that Muslim women have both led predominantly Muslim countries and held positions of power

Quote:
There are many more contemporary examples of women leading Muslim-majority countries. The majority of all Muslims in the world live in countries that have, at some time, elected women as their leaders. Indeed, the three most populous Muslim-majority countries have had women as leaders:

Indonesia, the most populous Muslim-majority country, elected Megawati Sukarnoputri as president[2]
Pakistan, the second most populous Muslim-majority country, twice (non-consecutively) elected Benazir Bhutto as prime minister[3]
Bangladesh, the third most populous Muslim-majority country, elected Khaleda Zia[4] and Sheikh Hasina as prime ministers.

Other Muslim- majority nations which have had female political leaders include:

Turkey elected Tansu Çiller, who became prime minister on June 13, 1993[5]

In the Muslim majority region of Kosovo, President Atifete Jahjaga was unanimously elected by the Assembly of Kosovo on April 7, 2011[6]

Kyrgyzstan's President Roza Otunbayeva was sworn in on July 3, 2010, after acting as interim leader following the 2010 April revolution.

Senegal's Mame Madior Boye was Prime Minister from 2001 to 2002.

Nearly one-third of the Parliament of Egypt- the fifth most populous Muslim majority nation- also consists of women.[7]
See also: List of the first female holders of political offices

Women still face many pressures as political leaders.[8]

Some Muslim women hold important positions in some governments, political parties and corporations. A paradoxical example is the banned Islamist party of Morocco, Al Adl Wa Al Ihssane (Justice and Charity). Since the leader cannot speak openly, his daughter Nadia Yassine is the one who publicly defends the opposition to the Mudawana, government-sponsored reforms on the legal status of Moroccan women.

The circumstances, and the often explicitly non-Islamic ideology of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic, and the Iran-Iraq war, because of the number of men fighting, led to an increase of the role of women in the public life of the Sahrawi and Iranians.

How many female Presidents has the US had?

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Monday, February 27, 2012 1:43 AM

Sharia law on divorce is probably more pro woman than western laws

Quote:
Islamic perspective on child custody after divorce Print E-mail
Introduction

Children are focus of gravity in Islamic Family tradition and law. When spouse are together, upbringing their child(ren) is paramount joint responsibility. Not only physical care and health, but emotional, educational, and religious welfare and well being are mutual responsibility. When spouses separate by divorce or annulment, these welfare responsibilities get also split according to best abilities of each parent. While fathers are vested with financial burden and legal guardianship roles, mothers are given role of physical carer and emotive guardian of child(ren). Inherently, Islamic system balances between multitude levels of child(ren)’s need. In recognition of an infant’s need for female care, all the juristic schools give first preference to a mother’s claim to physical custody of her young child provided that she satisfies all the requirements for a female custodian. After divorce during the period of the mother’s custody, she is generally entitled to receive custody wages from the father to help her maintain the child. Islamic Jurisprudential inferences Islamic law on custody of children after divorce is based on several hadith relating to how the Prophet sallalahu Alaihe wasallam dealt with cases brought before him. One of the key relevant hadith is the following: According to Amr Ibn Shu'aib, a woman came to the Prophet* and said: 'Truly my belly served as a container for my son here, and my breast served as a skin-bag for him (to drink out of) and my bosom served as a refuge for him; and now his father has divorced me, and he (also) desires to take him away from me.' The Prophet sallalahu Alaihe wasallam said: 'You have a better right to have him, as long as you do not marry again. Hadith: Ibn Majah The mother is recognised as generally the fittest person to take care of the children, because of the instinctive love and tenderness she feels for them and her closer contact with them throughout pregnancy, nursing, and childhood. However, if the mother marries again she would generally forfeit her right to custody. However, the period of female custody ends once the child reaches a certain age of custodial transfer. The Hanbali and Shafii schools do not distinguish between girls and boys regarding the duration of female custody. The Hanbalis maintain that the female custodian should have custody from birth until the child reaches the age of seven, at which point he or she may choose between parents. The Shafiis allow female custody until the child reaches the age of discretion and may choose either parent as custodian. The Malikis rule that female custody of a boy shall last until he reaches puberty, and for a girl until she marries. Under the Hanafi School, female custody of a boy ends when he is able to feed, clothe, and cleanse himself. Most Hanafi jurists set this age of independence at seven years, although some set it at nine. Hanafi jurists differ on when a mother’s custody of her daughter ends. Most maintain that the mother’s custody ends when the girl reaches puberty, set at either nine or eleven years of age. However, others allow the mother’s custody to last until the girl reaches the age of womanhood. Conditions of custody Whoever has custody of a child has to abide by conditions concerning residence and Islamic upbringing, to ensure that the child's welfare is properly cared for. The court may, if necessary, enforce these conditions or direct that the child be given to the next eligible custodian. The father should have access to his children, and he remains financially responsible for their maintenance and education even though they may be under the care of their divorced mother or one of her relations. Duration of custody and Transfers The duration of custody varies between the Four Schools of Islamic Jurisprudence as detailed earlier.

http://www.islamic-sharia.org/children/islamic-perspective-on-child-cu
stod

HERO

Monday, February 27, 2012 2:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
What is it, specifically, that YOU would find troubling about living under Sharia law?

For a start I'm not real big on stoning women for...being equal to men and all that implies.

There is lots of stuff, but I'd start there.

H.

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I agree with Hero." Niki2, 2011.

GEEZER

Monday, February 27, 2012 4:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Oonjerah:
If the Moslem God, called Allah, is imaginary ...
Is the Christian/Hebrew God, called Jaweh or Jehovah, also imaginary?

As far as I'm concerned, most likely. And all the others too.

And if any of them are by any chance out there, and condemn me only because I don't worship them, regardless of how I treat my fellow man, then screw 'em anyway.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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