Iran threatens Europe
POSTED BY: pizmobeach
UPDATED: Tuesday, June 2, 2026 17:14
VIEWED: 8095
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I don't think history is supported by the majority of people being SUICIDAL.
Where a mass tragedy occurred, it was the result of sociopathy having no consequences. Not being trusting or outright darwinian stupidity. MAD scenarios are the reality, otherwise the US and Russia would have wiped each other out.
You calling me trusting, that's funny. Trust factors into it not at all. I only expect people to be smart enough that they're looking out for their best interests... Provided their minds aren't twisted by propaganda.
The poll I posted, despite an uncertainty about the US and Israel and the browbeating of their leadership, does not suggest the people of Iran particularly have it in for either of us. This is not imminent danger, especially coupled with the fact that they don't have the technology to produce a nuke.
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Originally posted by Bytemite:Quote:
My admitted limited understanding is that it's obvious to inspectors the difference between what's used and needed, both in hardware and nuclear goo stuff, for bombs versus making electricity - that's what inspectors get paid for.
And even inspectors are saying that the flat plates and the type of centrifuges they're using could only be used to generate reactor fuel. Which is the same thing I've been saying.
I'm not risking a million lives first because I'm not in charge, second because I'm against a war in which a million people would die WITHOUT nuclear weapons involved, and third because there's no risk. They can't do something with technology they DON'T HAVE.
But even if they HAD it, or were working to develop it, and had the capacity? They'd be just like all the other rogue nations we thought were going to go attacking other nations around them like crazy. They would be cowed by MAD. Therefore still no risk.
Inspectors have said many things:
http://www.iaea.org/Publications/Documents/Board/2011/gov2011-65.pdf
43. The information indicates that Iran has carried out the following activities that are relevant to the development of a nuclear explosive device:
• Efforts, some successful, to procure nuclear related and dual use equipment and materials by military related individuals and entities (Annex, Sections C.1 and C.2);
• Efforts to develop undeclared pathways for the production of nuclear material (Annex, Section C.3);
• The acquisition of nuclear weapons development information and documentation from a clandestine nuclear supply network (Annex, Section C.4); and
• Work on the development of an indigenous design of a nuclear weapon including the testing of components (Annex, Sections C.5–C.12).
44. While some of the activities identified in the Annex have civilian as well as military applications, others are specific to nuclear weapons.
Byte - you have no idea what technology they have and you have no idea what their intentions are, as much as you may believe it you simply cannot make any guarantees.
I think you're projecting some phantom anger toward Iran and bad intentions toward them onto those of us who don't agree with you as well. None of us in this thread want a war, with or without nukes.
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"basing threat assessment on statistical probability" is what Israel has been doing - what % do you think is ok with them with the stakes being so high? 1%?
Hello,
Israel has to decide for Israel. And they always have.
But as for us? I'm not happy to throw another hundred-thousand souls into the meat grinder based on a 'might be.'
--Anthony
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"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner
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I, as Anthony has said, don't want to get into another war about someone maybe having WMDs. We did that before and it didn't go well and I don't want to do it again.
"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
I don't think history is supported by the majority of people being SUICIDAL.
Where a mass tragedy occurred, it was the result of sociopathy having no consequences. Not being trusting or outright darwinian stupidity. MAD scenarios are the reality, otherwise the US and Russia would have wiped each other out.
You calling me trusting, that's funny. Trust factors into it not at all. I only expect people to be smart enough that they're looking out for their best interests... Provided their minds aren't twisted by propaganda.
The poll I posted, despite an uncertainty about the US and Israel, does not suggest the people of Iran particularly have it in for either of us. This is not imminent danger, especially coupled with the fact that they don't have the technology to produce a nuke.
Suicidal? Um, the region is actually kind of known for using suicide as a tactic!
And, leaders have shown they don't have any problem sacrificing their own people either.
How many deaths in the Iran-Iraq war? I like this little tidbit, gives you a sense of how much the lives of the people are considered:
"Iran's government is said to have "become famous" for its use of human waves to clear minefields or draw enemy fire during the war. While very costly in human lives, the tactic sometimes worked."
Yeah, it worked! So I discount the concern for retribution from using a nuke as being thought of as suicide.
The poll you posted was from 2007 btw, the height of Bush's highly successful assassination tour of the US image internationally, another loon that would have probably gladly pushed the button.
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Originally posted by RionaEire:
I, as Anthony has said, don't want to get into another war about someone maybe having WMDs. We did that before and it didn't go well and I don't want to do it again.
That's why I'm really cautiously optimistic about the news that Iran wants to continue talks. I'd love to be a fly on the wall in Israel's defense dept...
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Many of those guys do seem to have a low regard for their people's lives, as well as their own.
"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya
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Originally posted by Niki2:
I'm confused. However the translation comes out, the basic idea is that "occupation regime over Jerusalem" must be wiped out. Isn't the only "regime" occupying Jerusalem Israel? How is that phraseology any different than the sentiment that Israel must be wiped out? Any way you put it, the "regime" over Jerusalem IS Israel, isn't it?
It helps if you don't equate the "regime" in charge to equaling the entire nation and all of its people. For instance, when the Bush regime was in charge, were you advocating the arrest and jailing of the entire nation of America, or just the Bush regime? I wanted the regime occupying Washington D.C. to be relegated to the dustbin of history (Ahmedinejad's words), but that wasn't a reference to wiping American off the map, was it? Wasn't it more a wishing for a future date when all the badness of that corrupt and ruinous regime would be forever behind us?
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As to nobody using nukes, I wouldn't bet the store on it. We're NOT "sophisticated" enough to guarantee nobody will, and there are crazies in every country. Given the state of our armed forces and how they're scattered around, given our current weakness, given China and Russia being firmly behind Iran and THEIR power, who can guarantee someone hasn't worked out the situation in such a way as to believe it would end up with them "winning"?
Sorry, I don't place that much faith in mankind's common sense. I'm not convinced Iran necessarily WILL, but I'm not convinced it's impossible.
My bet is America will nuke Iran before Iran nukes anyone. We already have a track record of behaving in such a manner, more than once.
"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill
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Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,Quote:
In existence since Biblical times,"
I'm not sure it's fair to say Iran has been in existence since Biblical times. The dirt has been there since Biblical times, but not a continuous government. We (the West) have indeed been messing with them since before WWII, and we (the British and USSR) ousted one of their more progressive leaders in 1941 and we (the United States) kicked out their rightfully elected leadership in the 50's and replaced him with a tool. Our tool. That guy was so bad that the people eventually overthrew him. The Iran of today only came into being in the 1970's.Quote:
"If all the big, powerful, Christian nations of the world have nuclear power, then it is only fair that we, Iran, should have nuclear power."
Yes, but perhaps more importantly, "If we are able to advance ourselves and develop nuclear power, by what right do you stop us?"Quote:
Iran (and perhaps other Arab neighbors) "need to sell oil to survive." How come?
Well, it's a resource. Nations tend to use their resources as survival assets. Israel doesn't have much in the way of oil, but if they did I'd wager they'd be selling it, too. They sell the resources they do have, after all.
But I wonder how well we'd tolerate it if Iran ever wanted to stop selling oil. Some people would probably roll the drums of war for that offense.
And with that, we've come full circle to where and how this thread started! Thanks, Anthony, for that.
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If they are this impractical, it is no wonder that no one wants them to have nuclear power. Heck! Now that I've thought it over, I don't want them to have nuclear power.
It shouldn't be our call. But even if we could have our way with the wave of a magic wand... Iran's trying to move into the late 20th century, and saying 'no' because they are 'impractical' seems to me like saying, "You are too barbaric for us to allow you any advancement out of your barbarity."
So who is "practical" enough to have such power?
"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill
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IAEA - "International Atomic Energy Commission."
I think you completely missed the parts of that report that indicate that the IAEA is just fine with Iran pursuing commercial uses of enriched uranium.
You, on the other hand, are against them having that, because you think it's like some sort of gateway drug to nuclear apocalypse.
Iran is claiming they have new generation centrifuges, a bold claim that doesn't hold much weight and which seems to be an effort to win support from the public for Ahmedinejad. Altogether this indicates they are really far behind and lying to save face about how much they've accomplished.
Schematics and research and attempts at reverse engineering is not the same thing as successful tests, which is not the same thing as prototype technology or having that technology available. It also says nothing about their immediate intentions to wipe Israel off the map, which itself appears to be propaganda and entirely unfeasible, like the ant biting the anteater.
They don't have the technology.
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