Real World Event Discussions

Defying the Deity

POSTED BY: AnthonyT
UPDATED: Tuesday, December 27, 2011 18:15
VIEWED: 9122
PAGE 10 of 11

DREAMTROVE

Friday, December 23, 2011 4:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Here's some interesting tidbits:

- dyslexia has been linked to auditory processing errors
- those speed reading courses are designed to free people from the internal voice so they can read faster.

1. Sometimes it's the eye. My sister knew someone who had this problem, and it went away with blue glasses. Astigmatism of some weird form.
2. I know, I tried them.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

MAL4PREZ

Friday, December 23, 2011 5:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Quote:
Actually, I always find it somewhat confusing that people feel uplifted by religion.
That one's easy, you got part of it already. The "man as God" thing--and thanx for that, nobody else mentioned it and I think it's a very valid observation. Also, religion can make people feel safe; they're not alone in the world (as we all know we are and feel it); then there's the HUGE sense of community, of belonging. "Safety" is partly having someone to look to for answers, to please and know that, by pleasing, that afterlife is assured, too. And more, I'm sure.

This is another thing that annoys me about how some people - a minority, thank goodness - use religion. It gives them a sense of superiority. I'm going to Heaven and you're not! Whatever.

Quote:
It's interesting to me that there are two others here with a parent who "escaped" Mormonism like I did. If they ever told you why, I'd be fascinated to know. And your mom's word for it is right on, Mal4; it's how I always felt, too. They don't let go easy, that's for sure!

Well, my mom's complicated. She was running from more than religion, is my feeling, though she doesn't talk about it. There's all kinds of weirdness tied up in that family, most of which I can only guess at.

However, I can tell you that she got married and pregnant while quite young (not in that order, and probably in some measure on purpose to help with the getting away thing, is my guess. The wedding is not spoken of. I didn't see pictures of the wedding until four shots were discovered on a dead uncle's camera when I was in my 30s. My parents looked so young, and fucking terrified.)

She spent four years in the states but away from her family in CO, five years in Germany, another year and a half in PA, then settled in Omaha, NE at just about the time I was becoming aware of life outside myself. (I wasn't the firstborn.) After all these years away, the Mormons showed up at our door in NE: "Hey Ruth, where you been?"

I'm not sure what she said to make them go away, but she must have said something good. They left us alone.

Many of her siblings - she has 9 - and many of my cousins on that side are now Jehovah's Witnesses. Preachers. Scary shit. My sister and I have enjoyed exhibiting our piercings and tattoos when we visit these folks. It's the only way I can handle them - let them know that I'm sinner and proud of it so leave me the hell alone!

OK, seriously, as much as my parents passed some of their baggage on to me, I'm grateful that they taught to marvel in the beauty of the world I see, rather than forcing me to blindly obey the words in some book.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

NIKI2

Friday, December 23, 2011 7:56 PM

Mala, obviously we come at things from different perspectives. I understand what you're saying about the original question, I wasn't addressing that. You addressed my question with

Quote:
I don't see an either/or between introspection and pursuing God.

I see them as two distinctly different things. Yes, introspection can be part of pursuing God, but not all combine them--some simply think they are "pursuing God" by blindly obeying what, to me, can only be man's interpretation of God. For them, what they see as "the pursuit of God" definitely does NOT call for rigourous introspection and self evaluation, in fact, quite the opposite. Introspection, on the other hand, needs no god. I guess my question was why do they have to be in conjunction with one another; isn't introspection, the effort at self-knowledge and self-awareness, sufficient unto itself? I assume you feel otherwise; ergo, we see things differently.

I just don't comprehend the need for "God" in the equation of pursuing self-awareness. That's just how I see it. I don't see the need for external help, nor do I see religion as being the "external help" one might need. I certainly don't believe anyone is perfect, but I don't see the pursuit of a god as enhancing perfection. Where that comes in, I believe in acceptance that nothing and no one will ever achieve perfection, or perfect understanding of self or others. I guess another way to put it is that I don't believe anyone or anything has the answers, and I don't believe in worshipping anything or anyone.

I believe that striving for self-awareness and acceptance can get us as close to understanding ourselves (and through that, others) as is possible, and the rest is acceptance of our (and others') flaws. I know of no external source which could give better answers than we find within ourselves, when it comes to ourselves, if that makes any sense. And the fact that any god's teachings are interpreted by humans means, to me, that one is seeking understanding by looking to another, flawed, human.

I also agree that, far too often, people who are religious THINK pursuing/worshipping/following a god somehow makes them better than others, kind of a stamp of "better", and I think that is counter-productive. I know really good people who are Christian and believe in God; I know really good people who either have no religion or pursue another form of "force", or what have you; and I know people who do really bad things but BELIEVE they are good because they are religious.

Judging is unacceptable, to me. I'm not sure what you mean by "evaluation". But I firmly believe that if we HONESTLY strive toward self-awareness and self-knowledge, we can achieve as close to understanding, improving and acceptance as is possible, without an external source. It's a very long and difficult process, and one which can never be achieved perfectly, but I accept that.

No doubt this is repititous as hell; I don't know how to put it in just the right words. It's just different perspectives is all.

Mal4, your story made me smile. Amazing how tenacious, and good at finding us, they are, isn't it?? I'm glad your mom found freedom. Jehovah's Witnesses?

ANTHONYT

Friday, December 23, 2011 9:13 PM

" Jehovah's Witnesses?"

Hello,

I spent a year studying with Jehovah's Witnesses while I was in High School. The group I met had a rather encyclopedic knowledge of the Bible, and they were willing to answer questions. We didn't see eye to eye on several things, but they were nice folks.

I know some people have horror stories about Witnesses. Just wanted to relate that they're not all overbearing nutsos.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

NIKI2

Friday, December 23, 2011 9:25 PM

I wouldn't mind if they were all overbearing nutsos even, Anthony, if they didn't show up on my doorstep periodically to invade my privacy and try to push their bullshit on me. Religious prosletyzers are on the very BOTTOM of my list, so that's where they live.

HKCAVALIER

Friday, December 23, 2011 9:43 PM

Hey Niki,

I think they do their fellow Americans a real service when they go door to door like that. They give us all an opportunity to be as unfriendly as we wanna be without consequences. That's a rare gift. We just have to seize that opportunity. People need to learn to say "no" whenever they want to say "no" and not just when it's "p.c."

Americans are too nice--it's one of the reasons the alpha psychopaths get a free ride. If I were a billionaire, I'd hire troops of fake Jehovah's Witnesses and send 'em around to teach people boundaries. Just be as obnoxious and pushy as possible and when folks either cave entirely to their demands or threaten to call the cops, I'd have 'em hand over some nice little anarchist pamphlets about what just happened.

No one can invade your privacy with a knock on the door and a question or two unless we let them. If a JW comes to my door, they will not be staying any longer than I want them to. To paraphrase Gordon Gekko, "Rude is good. Rude works."

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

ANTHONYT

Friday, December 23, 2011 9:47 PM

Hello,

I think it is possible to be polite and firm at the same time.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

NIKI2

Friday, December 23, 2011 9:53 PM

I agree with Anthony. I see them coming from the living room window (since if I'm home, I'm here on in my recliner 90% of the time). I meet them at the door, open it with a big smile and before they can say a word I say "Sorry, I'm buddhist, thank you. Have a nice day" and close the door...usually with one of their mouth's still open to get out the first word.

Doesn't mean I like 'em.

FREMDFIRMA

Friday, December 23, 2011 11:39 PM

I'm much more partial to the Jenovas witnesses myself.

It depends on how capricious I am feeling about it, cause I have been known to send them howling in terror from my doorstep, or hand out pamphlets of my own, I've got a box of em from Pathfinder Press - in particular "The Other People" is amazingly effective.

But most of the time I give them their one legal warning while advising that if I must physicially remove them from the property they may suffer accidental injury, with this "oh yes, PLEASE resist" expression, and they tend to head for the hills quite immediately - in fact soon after I moved here they STOPPED coming altogether, especially after that go-round with them Baptists that got them and their church run completely out of town.

The property manager has only ever seen me throw down on someone twice, both times with thier express approval and the second of those was someone who attempted to prosthelytize to them in the office, I told him it was inappropriate and he must leave in a cold tone of voice, and when he protested then stepped right into his personal space as aggressively as possible and gave him his legal warning and sent him skittering to his car - I am laid back and damn near slackerish most of the time, but that's one of the rare few things that'll send me right into "stormtrooper mode", it is.

My own belief expressly forbids prosthelytizing, you lead by example and let em come to you, period.
(And as I recall the Quaran says something awful similar as well.)

I am perhaps more hostile about it than most cause I consider those people a THREAT to me, if they but could they WOULD have men with guns backing up their attempts to ram their beliefs down upon thee, and all too often the State fucking plays along, so people who'd gleefully submit someone like me to the goddamned inquisition get short-shrift from me no matter how polite and friendly they are.

How polite would YOU be to folk intent on murdering you at the first opportunity ?

-Frem
PS. This is actually a bit of slackerdom on my part, since my beliefs actually do encourage pre-emptively killing them.

HKCAVALIER

Friday, December 23, 2011 11:44 PM

Hey Anthony, Niki,

Okay, first up: in my experience, nice decent people tend to let these kind of folks walk all over 'em because they don't want to be rude. Most decent folk have a tendency to feel like they've been rude if someone accuses 'em of being rude. Is this alien to you two? So, I was saying, "rude, schmude, that's no reason to not tell the JW's take a hike." Is that clearer?

Furthermore, what decent people label "rude" tends, in reality I have found, to be simple good boundaries, sticking up for one's self.

And Niki,I'm sorry, you're not making sense. You talked about these people "invading" your privacy. That's the only reason I wrote my post--if they don't invade your privacy, you might be better understood if you didn't say they do. I don't understand you, sometimes.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.