Defying the Deity
POSTED BY: AnthonyT
UPDATED: Tuesday, December 27, 2011 18:15
VIEWED: 9122
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I've often said that if I were to "worship" anything, it would be the human mind; the complexity of it and the things I can only imagine it capable of (if we had access to that 90%) leave me speechless. Of course I don't mean it seriously, but you get the idea.
I see this as evidence of the power of the human mind. I have no problem with religion in that sense - it allows us to tap into our own strengths, that 90% of our brains that we "don't use." This role of religion is a good one. And in a way, it supports that human form of God. God really and truly is us, the power we have inside ourselves to be stronger and better.Quote:
That one's easy, you got part of it already. The "man as God" thing--and thanx for that, nobody else mentioned it and I think it's a very valid observation. Also, religion can make people feel safe; they're not alone in the world (as we all know we are and feel it); then there's the HUGE sense of community, of belonging. "Safety" is partly having someone to look to for answers, to please and know that, by pleasing, that afterlife is assured, too. And more, I'm sure.
Actually, I always find it somewhat confusing that people feel uplifted by religion.
It's interesting to me that there are two others here with a parent who "escaped" Mormonism like I did. If they ever told you why, I'd be fascinated to know. And your mom's word for it is right on, Mal4; it's how I always felt, too. They don't let go easy, that's for sure! To "officially" escape, you have to talk to an elder (in other words, be counseled to stay) to get removed from their rolls. They literally pursued me for several years after I renounced it...all the way to one of the communal houses I was living in--how they found me I'll never know, but there they were! I've related the story of how we got rid of them before, and I never saw them afterwards, but it certainly was a shock to see how far they'd follow me and try to get me "back in the fold".
To me it is right on the cusp of being a cult in many ways. Jim's family comes from Southern Idaho--they're not Mormon, tho' one of his nephews converted. If you're not Mormon in the town where they lived, you're excluded from doing business with many; his nephew converted partly because Jim's brother had an insurance firm and he was able to deal with customers; was NOT the only reason he converted, but it helped, and he eventually moved across the Bay from us and started his own agency. We went over a couple of times, but we have nothing in common. And of course he had gone on to marry a Mormon and have a good number of kids...
I just find it interesting that within this small population we have three "escapees". Others have left their original churches, certainly, but a) Mormonism isn't THAT common that even having several in this small community with family backgrounds is probably a bit unusual, and b) Nobody else has mentioned before having LDS family backgrounds or being one themselves and having gotten out. So I find it interesting, being an escapee myself.
As to the moral compass, Sig, I disagree, to a point. I believe if we are TRULY honest with ourselves...which means a lot of soul searching, a lot of becoming self-aware (which most ultra-religious DO NOT DO)...we know what's right and wrong far more often than not. If you mean some inner voice which says "do this" or "don't do that", I agree. But if you mean following your belief in who you want to be, but not blindly, and it being very important to you, I believe actually thinking about words and actions ("meditating", if you will, as someone mentioned) will virtually always give the right answer. It may be the wrong answer for others--such as believing one should intervene in another's life "for
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This is NOT to be offensive or in any way diss your faith, Mala, just asked out of honest curiosity. You say having questions should hopefully be "motivation to pursue God more and seek answers". My question is: Why is it more valuable to try and pursue God and seek answers relating to him, rather than pursuing self-awareness and seeking to know and be what one believes is right, and accepting oneself and others? What is the purpose in working hard to understand another, even an all-knowing god, rather than working hard to understand oneself?
I hope I'm not offending, I just don't understand.
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Hi Niki,
I'm probably not understanding where your comment is coming from, since I didn't read the entire thread, so forgive me. I don't see an either/or between introspection and pursuing God. In fact, the pursuit of God calls for rigourous introspection and self evaluation. In the context of Anthony's first post, Anthony had a question involving the nature of God, a biblical story and a what-if sort of question. I think self examination and discovery is certainly important, but it seemed like he was looking to understand the nature of the Christian God and the meaning behind a particular biblical story. Introspection would only get him so far... Just like, if I don't understand a math problem, becoming self aware isn't going to help me learn how to solve that problem -- though I suppose I might feel more at peace with my lack of knowledge. I would hope that a person would know that they don't have all the answers within them and would then decide to seek external help. That is just what he did when he posted the question in the first place.
We may be approaching this from 2 different mindsets. I don't believe that an individual is perfect, and I don't believe humans are even able to evaluate themselves perfectly. I also don't think any human can evaluate/judge another perfectly, either.
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How many crazy people said "god" told 'em to do it?
Fewer. That was my point of how "what's less obvious." That would be the part that's more obvious.
But I find that my internal voice is never wrong, but I am sure that sometimes people get the wrong advice, like about killing John Lennon. But it's rare. I'd simplify this to "our subconscious is more aware of right, wrong and consequences than our conscious minds, which are well trained at lying to us."
That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.
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People have more than one internal voice. I'm sure you would too if you listened. Your internal voices will have contrary tones and opinions and advice. One may be 'the Authority' and it might appear godlike to some. It uses lots of 'shoulds' and 'should nots' and berates you when you have disobeyed. Another might be 'the petulant child' which says 'I want...' 'I deserve...' 'It's unfair..' Another may comment or observe your voices. The omnipotent narrator in your head. You choose to listen to one voice at any time, or they may all shout above one another in competition to be heard.
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I'll let DT explain it, but he told me he USED to have multiple voices like you describe, but after a year of over-medication on psychiatric drugs, he says he only has one.
You description is familiar... I have a slightly different break-down of voices though.
I don't really have a voice that takes priority over the others. I have one that thinks over what I want to do for the day that I call the taskmaster. I have one that gives advice and tries to calm down panic attacks and other episodes. That one argues with the vicious one that's trying to destroy me. Then I argue with both of them. Another one occasionally tells those two or all three of us to shut up when it gets too irritated. The last one is the third person narrative, who along with the taskmaster pretty much ignores all the drama.
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Quote:For many years when I was a teenager and not getting along with my mom, God took the voice of a woman, and I prayed instead to God the Mother.
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
A female God would not bother me.
I also now conceptualize God as universal energy or collective unconscious that connects all life.
I sort of think of God as similar to the alien that talked to Jodie Foster in Contact. It takes the form of whatever we need at the time.
Or we imagine it in the form of whatever we need at the time. As long as humans need strength and comfort outside of themselves, we will harness whatever resource we must to seek it.
-----
"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm
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Originally posted by Bytemite:
I'll let DT explain it,
Me? Oh no. I don't know how this works.
Oh, I get it. She wants me to say something, so here it is.
Magon. That's how *your* mind works. A couple of months ago I was researching this topic and I found some radically conflicting analyzes of how this worked. So, I went onto forums discussing the topic, and sure enough, people had a wide varierty of experiences.
Roughly 10% of people have no internal voice at all. About half of the remainder have one internal narrative voice. The rest have any of an assortment of combinations, many of them no doubt unique.
This lead me to the conclusion of what I thought was a fairly profound revolution that we are internally radically different. in spite of how similar we are in so many other ways.
We all have the same special genome to build from, so we are physically extremely similar.
We grow up in the same society, and so we learn to talk together, and as a result, we speak the same language.
Ditto for science, history, culture, etc. with perhaps more variation.
But we all learn to think by ourselves. This means we might come up with anything as product.
So, yes, I hear what you're saying: We might have voices we can't hear, and if we were more aware, we'd all hear more voices.
You may well be right; but that doesn't mean they would be the same voices as one another.
Your voices seem to reflect the id, ego and superego, but that's not how it's going to work for everyone. Some people see pictures, some don't. Some hear voices, some don't. Some people have separate languages stored in adjacent regions, one block for spanish, one for english, etc. Other people store the words side by side, where dog, perro and chien are all stored next to one another, rather than in their respective language zones.
Our brains share some similarity either dictated or encouraged by genetics. But to some extent we really do seem to be all different. I propose "sanity" is merely the ability to communicate between our brains and the other brains we meet. Ergo, I think "do you hear voices" is a really bad diagnosis of mental health.
That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
I'll let DT explain it, but he told me he USED to have multiple voices like you describe, but after a year of over-medication on psychiatric drugs, he says he only has one.
You description is familiar... I have a slightly different break-down of voices though.
I don't really have a voice that takes priority over the others. I have one that thinks over what I want to do for the day that I call the taskmaster. I have one that gives advice and tries to calm down panic attacks and other episodes. That one argues with the vicious one that's trying to destroy me. Then I argue with both of them. Another one occasionally tells those two or all three of us to shut up when it gets too irritated. The last one is the third person narrative, who along with the taskmaster pretty much ignores all the drama.
Yes, that is pretty much what I meant. Everyone will have different kinds, I was probably describing my own and some people may have one dominant voice, but the others are still there, perhaps quieter.
Psychosis is when you are unable to identify the voices as being your own, some kind of recognition capacity has been turned off in your brain, and you perceive the voices as being external.
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DT, again some links can be useful.
I don't believe that someone would have no internal voice, but they have not understood that there are narratives played out in their mind. It's a bit like some people claiming they never dream. Everyone dreams, just some people don't remember them.
You see this in children, because they have no learned to internalise their dialogues, and it is fascinating to watch and listen. Of course we call it play, because we don't like to admit that we are constantly playing out dramas and fantasies in our minds the same as they do.
edited to make sense
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