Vaccinations, Pt 2
POSTED BY: canttakesky
UPDATED: Wednesday, May 22, 2024 17:51
VIEWED: 18576
PAGE 10 of 17
Regarding the abject dismissal of high-dilution homeopathy simply because there is at this time no scientific test capable of determining result brought to mind an imagined conversation from days of yore that may well have been, and certainly echos a bit for me here.
Quote:
I daresay the whole notion is but polite fiction, bacteria ? microbes? HA!
Where is there any evidence of these supposed creatures existence, when this gentleman proposes that they are too small for as to see ?
The very notion is preposterous, I say - everyone knows these maladies are caused by night vapors and miasmas, the evidence is undeniable, and this gentlemans proposal a mere scam to sell his faery powder made from of all the things, moldy bread!
I daresay we reject this obvious fiction in light of obvious personal interest, as it conflicts so greatly with established medical knowledge as to be a ludicrous pipedream.
I've read Boyle, and Semmelweis, and have on occasion read similar excoriations of damn near anyone who ever significantly advanced scientific knowledge, often in the face of tremendous opposition.
As always I am leery of dismissing claims out of hand for reasons I've already explained, and simply because we have no test that shows a result, does not necessarily mean there may not be one.
I assign no particular credibility to either "side" of that debate, as both ends of it have shown sufficient bias to not take either one seriously, so for me the jury is still out, and will REMAIN out, till such evidence I have in hand to make up my own mind - I wouldn't use such a thing as a primary treatment since I have little knowledge about it and most of the time there are better options, but nor will I dismiss it entire.
-Frem
I do not serve the Blind God.
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Quote:
But when done properly, any old-ways healing is always, ALWAYS done at the least possible and moved up, instead of going in slam-bang-boom like modern medicine does - in fact I think that might be a source of otherwise unexplained complications by upsetting the bodys natural balances...
Good mainstream medicine does the same, Frem. It SHOULDN"T go in like a bull at a gate either. Not first up.
I kind of disagree about the body's natural balances stuff. The body is at war with itself. We're full of things fighting one another, bacteria, viruses, antibodies etc etc. Plus, we deteriorate. That is the natural order of things. Bits start to go wrong and cause us pain. Basically its miraculous that any of us live past 40.
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Especially miraculous in one case! 
Me and my primary doc actually had to tally all this crap so that we can beat the insurance company over the head with it, starting with petty stuff like Gerstmann Syndrome and working all the way down to every screw, plate, bit of plastic, sea coral and what have you - and he made the comment that I am essentially a Lich, cause there's no reason I should still be alive.. it's a realllly long list.
I did realize one thing I should be especially grateful for is that I do not suffer any psychological trauma from mechanical alteration or replacement - apparently most people do?
Guess that explains why some of my family totally freaked when they rebuilt me, save for a certain niece who thought it was way cool.
As for balances, I never said it was a harmonious balance, mind you - but there is a balance to most people, both physical and psychological, and throwing either out of whack can cause complications otherwise avoidable.
-Frem
I do not serve the Blind God.
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Quote:Yes, the symptoms are what kills young children. So preventing symptoms is good. Not arguing that.
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
I'm confused. IT's the symptoms which are dangerous. An infant with whooping cough cannot breathe because of the severity of the cough. The infection is spread via air born droplets that occur when the infected person coughs. If you have reduced symptoms you are less infectious. That is why the exclusion period is during the coughing stage.
What I am arguing about is the conflation of "no/few symptoms" with "not a danger to the community." It simply isn't true. Yes, respiratory droplets carry the bacteria. But the bacteria is transmissible through contaminated surfaces as well. Subclinical infection includes a mild cough and cold symptoms, which is sufficient to make the bacteria airborne.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2627963/
This is an old study when the whole cell vaccine was used, but it's free, so you can read the whole article. This is just an example of a paper on subclinical infection.
It is about Israeli researchers testing 46 fully vaccinated children in the contact circles (2 day care centers) of a baby who died of pertussis. They wanted to know how the baby got it when everyone around him was fully vaccinated.
Amongst the 2-3 year olds, 10% (3 out of 30) had antibodies suggesting a recent infection, but no symptoms. One of these kids had nasopharyngeal colonization and had full blown symptoms. Amongst the 5-6 year olds (16 kids), 55% (9 kids) of the class had antibodies suggesting a recent infection, but no symptoms. 25% of the class (4 kids) had nasopharyngeal colonization; only one had full blown symptoms, while the other 3 had mild coughs.
Of course, they don't know which of these kids transmitted pertussis to the baby's family and eventually to the baby. But they conclude: "Our results indicate that children ages 5-6 years and possibly younger, ages 2-3 years, play a role as silent reservoirs in the transmission of pertussis in the
community."
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"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm
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Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
While I was lookin at something elsewhere, this chart came to mind, and then this part leaped out in my mind as concurrent.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penicillin#Mass_production
Interesting to note the time frame there also coincides with the beginning of the ability to mass produce anti-biotics, I think it's relative, but not quiiiiite sure exactly how, gotta think about that one a bit.
-Frem
I do not serve the Blind God.
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Quote:If you can get this ball rolling, I'd be behind you 100%.
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
You don't involve Big Pharma - you make it established procedure and play the science card on that part of the medical establishment which all but worships it, and you do it in a sideways fashion by which they never realize that might turn their sacred cow into cheeseburger until it's already in place and any effort to yank it or munge it up makes them OBVIOUSLY look like they're hiding something and would lead to a fullisade of lawsuits - not as easy as I make it sound here, but entirely possible, yes.
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"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm
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Quote:Before penicillin in the mid 1940's, you got sulfa drugs in the 1930's.
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Interesting to note the time frame there also coincides with the beginning of the ability to mass produce anti-biotics, I think it's relative, but not quiiiiite sure exactly how, gotta think about that one a bit.
Sewer systems were installed in many cities in the late 1800's and early 1900's. It might have contributed to the sharp decline of mortality due to infectious diseases. Just a tad. :)
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"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm
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Quote:If I propose that disease is caused by microbes, and I create a test that will determine whether or not microbes are indeed a cause... such as hand washing, and I succeed, my hypothesis is looking stronger.
Regarding the abject dismissal of high-dilution homeopathy simply because there is at this time no scientific test capable of determining result brought to mind an imagined conversation from days of yore that may well have been, and certainly echos a bit for me here.
If I say that acupuncture works, even though I can't explain it in terms that modern medicine recognizes, but I can perform surgery on a person whose only anesthesia is acupuncture... well, then I would have to say that there is something there, even if it's not well-understood.
But if I create a test... several of them, in fact... attempting to prove that homeopathy is a valuable treatment, and I fail then maybe homeopathy isn't such a good option.
There is such a thing as the scientific method. If you can make something happen reliably over and over, well then, better get cracking and figure out what's going on. But to keep flogging a procedure for which there is NO evidence ... despite the fact that people have been looking for it ... is just like.. what? Insisting that Saddam had WMD? Still trying to create cold fusion? The best the homeopaths seem to come up with is...There may be no scientific proof that homeopathy is efficacious. But at least it hasn't hurt anybody. If there is ONE robust double-blind, placebo-controlled studies on homeopathy which show that it works, I haven't seen it. But I've seen a lot going the other way.
Jimminy. There IS a real world out there. There is also wishful thinking.
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Back to CTS...
We are NOW in the era where we have sewer systems, trash collection, running water, and antibiotics. All of those advances lowered the risk of dying from infectious diseases, and they reduced them a lot. But there were still epidemics. People were still dying, or getting paralyzed, from infectious diseases. There were still panics. Nobody knew who would get sick next.
In that era, my grandmother had eight children, only four of whom survived to adulthood. One died of TB, one from pneumonia, one from meningitis and one from ??? A fifth - my mom- now has post-polio syndrome. My mom was also a Kenny therapist for polio victims. It prolly didn't work (massage, passive range of motion) but it was the best they had.
This is where we were then.
Now consider that modern transportation has put a whole new shine on the idea of epidemics.
Quote:Because no evidence, no matter how good, is good enough to convince you that vaccines worked. And no evidence, no matter how poor, is poor enough to convince you that homeopathy doesn't work.
We will never know if vaccines alone are responsible for the decline of polio or if it would have gone on its own anyway.
The thing that is driving me nuts is the incredible one-side way that CTS interprets data... and that everyone accepts it.
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