Vaccinations, Pt 2
POSTED BY: canttakesky
UPDATED: Wednesday, May 22, 2024 17:51
VIEWED: 18576
PAGE 9 of 17
Hello,
You did not do a disservice to your argument. You did a disservice to a person.
I have insulted people before, been rude before, hurled incorrect accusations before. I am a human being. This is a universal failing.
I see that you have a lot of sorrow:
"I'm sorry I did what seems (to you) to be a fatal disservice to my argument"
But that's not what there is to be sorry about.
You have a brilliant, beautiful mind, Signy. I couldn't reach it with a ladder. I'll never be half the thinker you are.
So maybe I focus my talents in other areas. Areas inconsequential to a higher thinker. But they are important to me.
--Anthony
_______________________________________________
"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:Not true. Tony, you ask incisive, meaningful questions, including the one where you ask (in essence) What are we vaccinating for, if people who are vaccinated are protected? Asking the right questions is 99.999% of being brilliant. No, even more than that. It is, it truly is. Where science fails, it's because scientists don't ask the right questions.
You have a brilliant, beautiful mind, Signy. I couldn't reach it with a ladder. I'll never be half the thinker you are.
I let my temper get the better of me. I try not to, but I did. I don't regret it on a personal level, but that's my failing, not yours.
So carry on with whatever it is you're doing. Anyone who can manage to be polite... humane, even... and still be so smart has got to be doing something right.
BTW- FWIW there are others here that I consider to be far more intelligent than me... including you. They have reached their insights by paths very different from mine... some by empathy, others by hardscrabble experience, some by (it seems to me) having just a touch of schizophrnia, others by just being born brilliant, I guess. I'm just a middle-of-the-pack kind of person.
Maybe that's why I sometimes go out of my way to make people feel small. Again, my failing. The data should speak for itself; I do a disservice to the truth that way.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:I never made this argument.
Originally posted by SignyM:
ONE of your arguments is that vaccinations don't do much in reducing the sequelae of illness.
What I said was the graphs of lower incidences of a disease do not give us any information on sequelae of illness. You can't ASSUME just because there are lower incidences, there are less complications.
Quote:Again, I have never made this argument.
you insist that vaccines are ineffective.
I thought I listed my positions on vaccines at the start. Perhaps you did not read them.
ETA: All right, I will relent and explain myself this time.
In some people, vaccines are effective, immunizing them against infection.
In some people, vaccines are only partially effective, resulting in subclinical infection.
In some people, vaccines are duds.
Vaccines are effective, but its effectiveness has been greatly exaggerated by ignoring the subclinical infections and duds, not to mention all the misdiagnoses.
I could continue on and on defending myself against the hordes of strawmen you throw at me. But I hope all other readers can see for themselves what I actually believe and what I don't--despite of mountains of baseless accusations thrown out by Siggy. As usual.
-----
"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:Speak for yourself.
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:No, we would not.
I think that ultimately you both would like to see the same thing: The most effective medicine possible.
I would like to see the most effective and safe medicine possible. Yes. Yes, I would.
-----
"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:You oughta be a diplomat. You got talent out the waz.
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
I am glad that there are people who understand the dangers of ignoring medical science, and I am glad that there are people who are not content with the status quo of current progress. As long as there are scientists, and as long as there are those who rail against the limitations of current science, then there will be improvement beneficial to both.
I have more info to put out there. But if this is an indication that people are tired of the cat fights and are bowing out of this conversation, I will stop too. I am not really interested in talking to Siggy about this, as there is nothing we say to each other that we haven't said and fought about before.
While I am still here, I was looking for incidence rates of disease from before the 1950's, and found this.
http://www.vaclib.org/sites/harpub/pol_all.htm
I am not saying I agree with this author, though the author makes a good point that we must look at other factors of both causation and cure. Anyway, it is a good graphic of the timeline of polio.
We also need to consider epidemics that came and went without the use of vaccines. Their graphs look very much like the polio graph. It is called an epidemic wave.
http://www.liv.ac.uk/geography/research_projects/epidemics/epidemic_wa
ve.html
We will never know if vaccines alone are responsible for the decline of polio or if it would have gone on its own anyway.
-----
"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:I fully concur, Anthony.
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:Not true. Tony, you ask incisive, meaningful questions, including the one where you ask (in essence) What are we vaccinating for, if people who are vaccinated are protected? Asking the right questions is 99.999% of being brilliant. No, even more than that. It is, it truly is. Where science fails, it's because scientists don't ask the right questions.
You have a brilliant, beautiful mind, Signy. I couldn't reach it with a ladder. I'll never be half the thinker you are.
-----
"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Since I have caved and stooped to defending myself, I will indulge one more time for this.
Quote:No. I have never advocated that people stop vaccinating.
Originally posted by SignyM:
But do we stop vaccinating because the vaccines aren't perfect?
I have advocated personal choice, making the decision with a trusted health consultant. Some people will choose to vaccinate. Good for them. Some people will choose not to vaccinate. Good for them.
Quote:A lot of interesting falsehoods about me seem true to you. I will chalk it up to your having a very good imagination. CTS, The Monster, in 3D!!!
That seems to be what CTS is advocating,....
Quote:If vaccines immunize as effectively as the CDC claims, a small proportion of refusers would not endanger them. Dropping the vaccination rate from 99% to say, even 80%, (imagine that the current 1% of refusers grow into 20%) will still be incapable of bring back the old sweeping, deadly epidemics.
Because HER choice would place us back in the days of sweeping, deadly epidemics
Quote:I am not denying. I am questioning if they were eliminated by vaccination. Rejection and doubt are two different things.
(epidemics which she tends to deny were eliminated by vaccination. Because the statics aren't "good enough" for her.)
I hope that clarifies where I stand. Not for you, Siggy, because you enjoy using your imagination. But for Byte, and Anthony, and Frem, in case there was confusion.
-----
"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Washing one's hands was a revolutionary idea way back. It did away with lots of illnesses.
Simple but effective.
Now it's complicated because of money.
Crappy is the operative word.
Crappy data correlation, crappy supervisors, crappy pay, crappy motivation, crappy standards, in essence, all that is best in the corporate mentality.
I trust in NOTHING that is motivated by profit alone. 
The laughing Chrisisall
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Ok, from the last post on down...
Magons
Quote:
Frem, we seem to be trying to out do one another with interminally long posts and I am almost through with this, just from running out of things to say.
Aye, and it weren't even intentional on either of our behalf - I think it gratifying to exchange views without the usual biases and hostility for once, very much so.
Quote:
I think that mainstream medicine has given us much to be thankful for, including vaccination. But I also see that it doens't do so well on the wellbeing aspect of health. It tends to focus on fixing illness, rather than looking at people's general wellbeing and I believe that is why people often tend to turn to alternative medicines. I guess there is also a sense of medical assistance being more of a sausage factory rather than focusing on individuals needs. I've been lucky enough to have local doctors who are not like that.
HA! sausage factory is indeed an apt description - most docs over here don't spend one bloody second with a patient they don't absolutely have to, and the human-contact part of it is almost entirely missing.
I actually disputed one bill recently, a follow-up (i.e. required ass-covering for their malpractice insurance, of ZERO medical necessity) in which I visited a Rheumatology specialist - the flunkies took my vital signs and then the doc comes in, and in five minutes flat realizes there's nothing here TO follow up and sends me on my merry...
I highly disputed $145.00 USD for this (and won that dispute) cause that's just bullshit.
Quote:
I also have some concerns about how across the counter herbal medicines are produced whatgoes into them, how they are handled, what they are mixed with. There tends to be a lot less scrutiny and accountability for this type of medicine. I say this having experience of packaging spirolina in what was basically a terribly unhigenic sweat shop.
Oh indeed, the problem with involving the FDA is their asinine concept of banning shit outright - were they to just insure truth in labelling and toss in a disclaimer about the lack of testing/approval I'd be more inclined to perhaps go with that, provided the issue of them being little more than a mouthpiece for Big Pharma can also be addressed...
Quote:
I also dispute the claim that herbal is gentler or safer. Some plants can kill you if ingested, some can give you organ failure, some bring on psychosis. Nature is not nor ever has been gentle. She's a freaking bitch quite frankly. Some herbal remedies (such as St John's wort) can interfere with other medicines such as the pill or tablets people take for heart problems.
Well only a stone-blind idiot would come at it that way, not that there's any shortage of those in any profession save maybe Architecture...
(Funny, I've NEVER met a stupid architect, never, weird, eh ?)
But when done properly, any old-ways healing is always, ALWAYS done at the least possible and moved up, instead of going in slam-bang-boom like modern medicine does - in fact I think that might be a source of otherwise unexplained complications by upsetting the bodys natural balances...
That said, there's times for slam-bang-boom, the turnaround on that Acute Febrile-whateverthehellitwas, came as a result of the mad-science doctor dropping a concentration of steroids and other stuff into my bloodstream all at once in a fashion that'd prolly be lethal to most people, to both short-circuit the autoimmune reaction and treat the underlying problem setting it off - despite the near hysterics of the other docs it worked flawlessly, causing my immune system to re-target onto the actual problem instead of attacking it's own host, whereupon it cleaned up house so well they took even MORE blood samples cause of the medical possibilities of an immune system response that *can* curb-stomp something like that.
I told em I want royalties if they come up with anything, and they have "bought" my patience for further testing by offsetting previous medical bills in exchange.
CTS
Quote:
YNOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
This is very characteristic of subclinical infection in pertussis. Sometimes, the vaccine only masks the symptoms, but does not prevent infection. Some vaccinated people do not get symptoms at all, or have symptoms so mild they think it is only a cold. They walk around like Typhoid Marys infecting others unknowingly.
Meanwhile, unvaccinated people with full blown symptoms get blamed for spreading the disease, cause it is easy to see THEY have it. Maybe they did spread it. But it is not fair to assume the people like your son DIDN'T spread it as well.
I'm confused. IT's the symptoms which are dangerous. An infant with whooping cough cannot breathe because of the severity of the cough. The infection is spread via air born droplets that occur when the infected person coughs. If you have reduced symptoms you are less infectious. That is why the exclusion period is during the coughing stage.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME