Would Zoe be a good mother?
POSTED BY: Bytemite
UPDATED: Sunday, December 11, 2011 16:00
VIEWED: 26237
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Minor spoilers for Float Out
Minor spoilers for Float Out
Minor spoilers for Float Out
Two, I'm getting the distinct impression that you didn't like Float Out.
I thought the ending was a beautiful surprise and a way for the character to have, not only closure, but a possible future, living on in the memories of family and friends.
Do you view it as the end of Wash’s character and no potential for a return, except in stories told in his past life? Just curious.
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Quote:There is hope for Wash returning in the flesh. But I like my happy endings happier than most people do. It is a matter of my immature tastes.
Originally posted by Platonist:
Minor spoilers for Float Out
Minor spoilers for Float Out
Minor spoilers for Float Out
Two, I'm getting the distinct impression that you didn't like Float Out.
I thought the ending was a beautiful surprise and a way for the character to have not only have closure, but a possible future, living on in the memories of family and friends.
Do you view it as the end of Wash’s character and no potential for a return, except in stories told in his past life? Just curious.
An example from last week: I watched Doctor Who episode The Big Bang. The situation is hopeless, everyone is dead or locked away forever. The episode very cleverly found an escape from the hopeless trap. Doctor Who had River Song's vortex manipulator. “Cheap and nasty time travel. Very bad for you. I'm trying to give it up,” said the Doctor. Firefly could do a Doctor Who: River Tam has cheap and nasty precognition, which doesn't always work. She suspected that Wash would die, wasn't sure, didn't react in time. There will be a way that she reinforces her precognition so that she would/will show up in the nick of time to pull Wash out of his safety harness before he is speared by Reavers. I heard this referred to as hitting the ejector seat button when a story is about to crash into a dead-end.
Select to view spoiler:
Overnight I dreamed up a way to add some character conflict to Float Out: bring on the entire Serenity Crew, including a not pregnant Zoe & Wash's very pregnant ex-girlfriend. Jayne can say the stupid thing, “How does it feel to know Wash has a kid comin', Zoe?” POW! Zoe knocks Jayne to the deck. Float Out tells the same three stories about Wash's legendary piloting skills, but there is another story where the ex- tells Zoe the baby was conceived BEFORE Wash meets Zoe. Zoe and the ex- christen the ship together, one champagne bottle and one bottle of cheap Asian liquor baptize the “Jetwash”. ~THE END~ That story is in the spirit of Firefly. More action, less funereal dirge. Imagine the uncomfortable scene when River, hugging the pregnant woman, says, “Hello, Wash's baby... Meet Wash's wife, Zoe.”
The physics in Float Out had some problems that writer Patton Oswalt could have fixed trivially. You probably know that when a pair of cars or pair of ocean-going freighters crash together at 30 mph, both vehicles are wreaked. One of the freighters may sink. Oswalt had two spaceships crash together at 3000 mph. Or 300. Or 30. That will kill everyone. But if Oswalt had Wash dropping a shipping container that weighs 40 tons like it was space torpedo, that would have got Wash out alive without straining credibility. Wash's container of cargo is destroyed, not his ship.
And the champagne bottle in outer space? It looks cool in a comic book but it's wildly impractical. If it was a real spaceship christening, the bottle would be broken on the inside of the ship, where there's air & gravity. Spacemen would never break the bottle in the vacuum and put shards of glass into orbit. It is like breaking glass in your own driveway. Nobody sensible would do that to their own rubber tires.
There is always extreme tension between having a happy ending in science fiction TV and not breaking the laws of physics or human behavior. Most stories throw away real physics / behavior and go all Harry Potter. Or the stories just decide not to have a happy ending, i.e. Battlestar Galactica. I prefer the Firefly approach where the heroes always recover from their wounds before the next episode. Again, I've childish tastes in sci-fi -- I want stories where death is not a permanent condition and heartbreak can be overcome.
The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two
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An old quote.
If you wait to have kids until you are ready, you'll never have kids.
And two words...
Sarah Connor.
Zoe Washburne would be a bit like T2 Sarah Connor, and a fantastic mother in a rough world.
She would know how to protect her child, and would know about risks, which ones are worth taking, and which ones should not be. She is independent enough not to be a helicopter mother, and would inherently well qualified to instill discipline in the child.
It would be hard as a single mother, without Wash, but Mal was raised on a ranch on Shadow by a single mom, and a bunch of ranch hands... The crew of Serenity would be involved in raising the child as close as a family unit.
Mal would be a father figure, whether he liked it or not, that is just the loyalty he inspires, as well as the authority of being the captain, even if not strictly the child's biological father. That might make an interesting dichotomy.
Jayne would be an influence to have to consistently counter. An example of what not to do.
Simon would perhaps be a good science and technical teacher. Kaylee would probably love to play with a little child at every opportunity. Inara without going into details about her occupation would also be a very qualified teacher of the humanities, art, and music. Book would have made a great mentor, also.
River's reaction to a child would be interesting to see. She'd in some ways identify with a somewhat child-like view, in other ways she'd be able to read the child in ways the child might not even know how to express. (imagine being able to know exactly why an infant is crying... and not having to guess.) and in other ways River being puzzled by the occasional irrationality and illogical nature of a child's mind. Also River having to deal with not being the youngest or most vulnerable person on the crew... like a pseudo big sister having to make room for a new sibling.
Zoe may transition to motherhood by taking fewer bold risks, and life would change with a rugrat on board ship... but change is the only constant of life anyway.
"Machines just got workin's, and they speak to me."
"What you plan and what actually happens ain't exactly ever been similar."
"Somethin' about that is just down-right unsettlin'."
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I agree with preety much everything you just said 
I will add that the same warrior aspect in an intelligent woman translates into a protective nature, usually. I'd definately let her babysit my kid.
Hello, Midwesterner, mee too. Well, technically. Southern Indiana is considered midwest. I consider it the Middle of Confusion.
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Hmm.
In most cases, I think it might end up being:
Quote:
If you wait to have kids until you are ready, you'll have a few surprises.
I dunno. I think the crew of Serenity helping Zoe raise her kid might actually be a bad idea. Oh, for sure they'd want to help, and they'd mean well. But I don't think it'd work out.
As you said, it's up to Zoe to recognize what is a good idea and a bad idea. She talks about being raised shipside, clearly she had a disciplined and maybe military upbringing, but I'm not really sure that worked out for her. She might want to consider what kind of life she wants to offer her child, and not just fall back on what's familiar.
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She also said that she isn't so afraid of a thing that she is willing to go without it. Procreation is a basic drive inherent in people, and she showed that it was on her mind. She also isn't fresh out of school age, so she doesn't have decades of time to figure it out.
Where else would she raise a child?
On a backwards moon somewhere like Triumph? how is that better than living on a spaceship that can get you to where work can be found?
On an alliance-governed planet nearer the core? Not gorram likely.
IF she settled down in the world somewhere, what would she do for a living to support the child? She has skills to do the work she's doing, and I can't see that shiong-tsan sha-sho waiting tables in a local greasy spoon, or serving drinks in a bar.
She's in the life she wants, and she wants a child, too. Maybe not ideal child rearing environment, but I can think of worse. Obviously the risk of death is something that is not new to her. I think settling down and doing near-nothing would be worse than death for Zoe, and probably a few others on the crew.
And if she did decide to stay in the world, it would probably be after a big enough score to set her up for life. Maybe if they could get that Lassiter sold, and could afford one of them private floating islands for herself.
Her chances are as good while sticking with the captain as anything else, and it would have to be a powerful force to get her to leave his side. Inara had enough trouble leaving her own self, and that was just after a few months, and she came back.
"Once you're in Serenity, you never leave. You learn to live there."
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Procreation is a basic drive inherent in people
No. No it is not.
But I'll ignore the hetero-centric viewpoint for a moment to address the rest of the post.
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Where else would she raise a child?
She LIKED Wash's idea of him taking a job on a luxury cruiser in Better Days. Granted, without Wash being around to pilot the thing, that really isn't all that open as an option anymore, but clearly she has considered alternatives already. And if she can find one option that she might compromise on -or prefer? - to Serenity, she might find others.
I seriously doubt she or Mal are going to spend the rest of their living days on Serenity. I might question their sanity and their emotional stability. I do NOT question their intelligence or their will to live.
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I think settling down and doing near-nothing would be worse than death for Zoe, and probably a few others on the crew.
Except they all have indicated in canon stories that they would do so if they felt they had the option.
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"Once you're in Serenity, you never leave. You learn to live there."
That line was never intended to suggest that Serenity is a particularly good place to live. That was the name of a horrific battlefield, remember?
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Heterocentric? I didn't realize we were going that direction.
Procreation is a strictly cooperative, hetero (as in different genders) sexual (as in half-DNA re-combinant reproduction) biological function, and it IS a biological drive. That isn't an opinion, that is science, and just flat truth.
Without a biological drive to reproduce ingrained in people as a rule, (which Pax diminishes and eliminates, evidently) humans DIE OUT, as a civilization and as a species. Maybe there are individual people who are exceptions, but Zoe wouldn't be one, by her comments which define this discussion.
Humans are not asexual self-replicating organisms, and same-sex pairings biologically can't reproduce... so having, as in CREATING a CHILD is distinctly "heterocentric."
If you are going to call my points heterocentric under a negative connotation, I have to wonder if your opposing view is coloring your take on whether she should have children at all, let alone where and under what conditions.
More than that... Zoe is a heterosexual woman, as a character. It isn't just implied or inferred.
Out Of Gas seems to suggest that at least Mal is fine with living out his days doing what he is doing, and going his own way. And going down with the ship if that is what is what it takes.
Maybe Zoe would leave... but it would not be an easy choice, and she stayed on board even after Wash's death... on a boat where Wash died in the pilot's chair. On a boat she wasn't exactly enamored with the first time she saw it, and after the Operative offered the support to patch her up, Zoe even said she was still tore up plenty but was positive enough about the ship to still say that she'll fly true. Serenity was most definitely more of a home than probably anywhere else in the 'verse she could go. There is a powerful will to stay there after all of that, and whimsy isn't going to cause her to leave. And someplace that is 'home', is where you do raise children, if you do raise children.
If that doesn't become an occasion to stay in the world, or find another ship, or do something else... I am not sure what else would. Most of the rest of the crew would turn over before Zoe would strike out on her own without Wash or Mal, to fare for herself completely alone, or more drastically, without anyone's help raising a child. Nothing suggests that she has a close group of family or friends outside of Mal and the crew of Serenity, and her personality isn't exactly warm and fuzzy, suggesting that she doesn't make new casual friends easily.
Even her military background was as part of a unit group, not solely on her own for everything. She is/was a soldier, not a spy.
The quote about learning to live in Serenty isn't about it being desirable to do so, it is about overcoming and accepting what changes the nature of one's life permanently, such as the horrors of war, and adapting to it, and making it work afterward, and making the best of the new normal.
I would say becoming a parent would be one of those permanent changes, and most of the time, for the better, and almost never for the easier.
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Maybe there are individual people who are exceptions, but Zoe wouldn't be one, by her comments which define this discussion.
Fair enough, but to not procreate is not death, and also to say it is a drive for everyone IS generalizing, and untrue.
There are plenty of nonsexuals out there (they use the term asexual, but I dislike it for the reasons you give), I'm one of them.
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I have to wonder if your opposing view is coloring your take on whether she should have children at all, let alone where and under what conditions.
You shouldn't speculate about the motives of people you don't know. I'm fine with her having children and people having children. I don't particularly like kids, nor like stories about kids, but it's none of my business whether other people decide to procreate or not. I have no say, particularly in Zoe's case. It's been all but decided, I can deal with that storyline and event.
I was contesting you calling it a universal thing. There isn't just one way to live this life, though there are more dangerous, tragic, and unfortunate ways to live this life. I'd hope the crew of Serenity don't have to live that, though this is a Joss Whedon story we're talking about.
My issue with Zoe is about whether she's objective and emotionally whole enough to assess the dangers of her own life. When she has that conversation with Wash in Heart of Gold, she's not. I concede it might have been the heat of the moment, she was having an argument and not being entirely rational at the moment.
She shows a better sense of objective reality and responsibility later, in the comic books and movie.
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Out Of Gas seems to suggest that at least Mal is fine with living out his days doing what he is doing, and going his own way. And going down with the ship if that is what is what it takes.
It is NOT necessarily his PREFERRED option. I'd really have to recommend you read the supplemental material if you haven't. It'd be interesting what you might make of it.
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There is a powerful will to stay there after all of that, and whimsy isn't going to cause her to leave.
I don't believe the safety of her child is whimsy.
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I am not sure what else would.
It's always seemed to me that reason Zoe sticks around is because Mal's life is such a mess. She stays at the end of the movie because they're still patching up the ship, and themselves, emotionally. But if Simon and Kaylee and River and Mal all start to move on, then what's to stop Zoe as well? She has her own life and mind separate from being Mal's soldier.
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friends outside of Mal and the crew of Serenity, and her personality isn't exactly warm and fuzzy, suggesting that she doesn't make new casual friends easily.
None of these necessarily prevent her from trying to be a single mother. Also, you ought to see her interaction with Wash's old friends.
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The quote about learning to live in Serenty isn't about it being desirable to do so, it is about overcoming and accepting what changes the nature of one's life permanently, such as the horrors of war, and adapting to it, and making it work afterward, and making the best of the new normal.
I don't think it's about making the best of anything. Simon expresses astonishment at Mal for believing that being shot at, Kaylee injured, nearly being boarded by Feds and having to do a desperate run around to sell some salvage for some change that'll barely keep them running is a GOOD DAY.
I'm not really sure it's that healthy. It's actually kind of fatalistic and self-defeating.
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I have to side with MidWesterner in that humanity has an innate drive to procreate. Of course there are exceptions to this as with anything, but I don't think the statement "humanity has an inherant drive to procreate" is in any way inflamatory or weird or incorrect, I think you are overreacting a tiny bit Byte a chara.
I see both points here, MidWesterner says that Zoe could raise the child on the ship with the Serenity family, which I love reading stories about, stories with a kid on Serenity are sooooooo much fun, my favorite being Extra Cargo by Miss Guenever. I also understand what Byte is saying about how when a woman has a baby she does whatever is best for that child, that child becomes her number one priority, as it should be, so in that light it is possible for Zoe to move somewhere else, though I hope that she still sees Mal and crew a lot because they are her family and they'd be the child's extended family. From a personal standpoint I prefer stories where everyone is together at least most of the time, but the other is understandable too.
"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya
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