Cash for Clunkers
POSTED BY: AnthonyT
UPDATED: Sunday, October 2, 2011 23:29
VIEWED: 4647
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I apologize if I'm repeating others, I am busy lately and only skimmed the post.
It's my understanding that "Cash for Clunkers" only required that the new car be 4mpg more efficient than the old one and that the old ones were destroyed for the program to be implemented. This seems extremely wasteful. Keeping that old car running likely has a far smaller carbon foot print than what was made to build a new hybrid.
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Quote:
Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:
I apologize if I'm repeating others, I am busy lately and only skimmed the post.
It's my understanding that "Cash for Clunkers" only required that the new car be 4mpg more efficient than the old one and that the old ones were destroyed for the program to be implemented. This seems extremely wasteful. Keeping that old car running likely has a far smaller carbon foot print than what was made to build a new hybrid.
4 MPG over was the minimum, the greater the difference that greater cash amount. Also most of the new cars bought thought the program were not hybrids.
Also for other poster that say it cause a shortage of used vehicles, the program distributed around 700,000 vouchers. While in the US there are an estimated 255 million vehicles. So less then 0.3%.
That claim also ignores that fact that in a recession people buy more used cars then new cars, hence the higher prices and the shortage.
I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
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Anthony
You're regrettably ignoring my point, whether or not it comes from Neptune: There's a logical inescapable that destroying what you make is never going to be an economically sound principal. Human productivity is the result of skilled labor applied in a creative direction.
I see no reason why Obama's cash for clunkers program is any more beneficial than Osama's "let's all blow up cars in France" plan.
That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.
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Hello Dream,
Well, here is where I see that the 'stimulus' part of the plan actually works. I assume stimulus plans are intended to stimulate economic activity and retain or create jobs.
The auto dealerships can not lay off their sales forces because people are coming in and buying cars.
The auto dealerships can not lay off their office staff because loan applications are coming in that need to be filed, and the Clunkers paperwork itself needs to be submitted.
The auto manufacturer will at least lay off fewer workers because there is a renewed demand in their product.
The wrecking/recycling companies will not lay off employees because suddenly they have a lot of material to crush and recycle.
Now, you could remove the wrecking portion and still be stimulating a lot of activity. I have asked many times if removing the clunker part of the equation would be better.
In any event, there is clearly some stimulation of activity going on.
The other plans, which included just giving money to companies, seems to have accomplished no such stimulation.
--Anthony
_______________________________________________
"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner
ETA: I forgot about the stimulation of job retention in the lending industry, which is humorous considering where I work. But possibly people are upset enough with Banks right now that they do not care if lenders have layoffs. ;-)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
In the end, it was a failure. Like every other time the government tried to get involved in the free-market. But this time, it had an even more ominous overtone...
"We want to get rid of these evil environment-destroying cars... so here you poor people... TAKE our handout... hehe.. take our cash... we will give you a slave collar (oops) I mean, a car-payment option... on this brand new vehicle... look.. it gets xyz mpg... doesnt that sound great? hehehe Here, give us your old cars and you can have this pretty new one!"
"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"
Wulfie,
Was anyone FORCED to trade their car in to get their brand new "slave collar", as you call it?
I didn't trade mine in, because I couldn't find a reasonably-priced car that gets better mileage.
By the way, I notice Anthony has asked you repeatedly now for some kind of statistics or cites that back up your claim that ALL the low-priced POS cars were traded in and trashed. Can you even show us one single area where that has proven to be the case? Heck, my neighbor just sold his mint-condition '90 Lexus SC400 for $2500 last week. I could have strangled him, because I would have gladly paid that price for that car, but he said that's all he thought it was worth. :(
I'm sure our righties will agree that there should never be any incentives for modernizing factory or farming equipment, or any kind of government subsidies or tax breaks or write-offs for doing so. After all, encouraging companies to modernize might reduce the availability of "POS" American factories to be sold on the world market!
"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill
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Quote:
Posted by Wulfie:
What I said.. but added that the new cars run on hope, dreams, and unicorn-horns...
Which models are those? I have yet to see a car that runs on any of those things. Sounds quite rare.
Or are you just pulling your "facts" out of that place where you usually stick your head, again?
I'm betting it's that last bit. It usually is with you right-whingers. ;) (The "wink" means I spelled it that way on purpose, in case you're wondering.)
"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill
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I really don't understand why anyone bothers with Rappy or Wulfie.
Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?
Yeah, me neither....
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Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
"Whats "inexpensive"? To Joe Blow, inexpensive means a 500 dollar car. To Bill Gates, its a 500000 car."
Hello,
Cars are available in my area in the 500-2000 dollar range. Of course, you get what you pay for with such vehicles, as you always have. They generally have multiple mechanical faults and leak multiple fluids and possibly burn some oil. They are a temporary solution to a permanent problem. All the cars I ever owned in Florida were all of this type. None of them cost more than two thousand dollars, and most of them hovered around 1000. Back then, I had a mechanic named Pepe who would perform triage on my car every few months, repairing or replacing the most defective systems to keep it running just a little longer. "Pepe, I've got 200 dollars. What do I absolutely need to fix to make it through the next 30 days?"
Anyhow, such cars still exist where I live, but Pepe is gone, so I invest a lot more in my vehicles now.
Don't you guys have to have roadworthy's for cars? I mean $500 for a car wouldn't be roadworthy.
Some states do, some don't. Even the states that do, you can usually find *THAT GARAGE* - you know, the one where the guy will fudge the test, run his own car on the emissions equipment for your test, etc. I was actually a bit shocked when I had to get my CRX smogged for the first time - Austin implemented the emissions testing in the early 2000s, and my car was new in '91, and had been extensively reworked and modified by me in the interim. I was worried it wouldn't pass, because the mods were geared more towards performance, but it actually measured LESS of all pollutants than the car did WHEN BRAND NEW. I guess hand building your own engine to more exacting tolerances than the Honda factory calls for really does have benefits!
"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill
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Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Anthony
You're regrettably ignoring my point, whether or not it comes from Neptune: There's a logical inescapable that destroying what you make is never going to be an economically sound principal. Human productivity is the result of skilled labor applied in a creative direction.
I see no reason why Obama's cash for clunkers program is any more beneficial than Osama's "let's all blow up cars in France" plan.
That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.
Probably a bit less collateral damage, being that one group (C4C) has to actually CHOOSE to participate in the program, where the other group tends to be - how shall I put this delicately - a bit less discreet about who participates.
By your rationale, a targeted sniper strike is no different than a massive carpet-bombing raid, since both have the end result of death and destruction.
The IDEA behind the C4C program was a sound one, and one that's been voiced by some on the right for years: Target anti-pollution efforts at THE WORST OFFENDERS when it comes to cars. 90% of automotive tailpipe emissions are coming out of about 10% of the cars these days. People who trade this year's model in on next year's model aren't the problem, and shouldn't be the target for improving air quality standards. You need to get Jim-Bob out of his '76 Cadillac Eldorado Convertible and get him into something cleaner - a 1990 Chevy Suburban would be a help! It's not that great on gas mileage, but its emissions are light-years away from those 60s and 70s beasts.
There tend to be exemptions for antique and collectible cars, but there were some strange ones traded in under the C4C program, that's for sure. A few Buick GNXs, at least one Aston Martin DB9 Coupe (wonder what they traded that in on, and why they took the voucher on a car that cost well over $100,000 new?!), and lots more.
"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill
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I'm curious as to why Rappy thinks TARP was a good idea, but any *other* kinds of stimulus-slash-bailouts are automatically bad ideas.
I don't expect he'll ever answer, though. He tends to run away when asked about specifics. And quite often, he runs away when GIVEN specific answers about the questions he asks.
One might almost be tempted to draw conclusions from such behavior on his part.
"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill
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