Comic-Con 2011 Joss: New Buffy and Serenity comics, Dr. Horrible, Avengers
POSTED BY: Bytemite
UPDATED: Thursday, September 15, 2011 06:01
VIEWED: 3368
PAGE 2 of 3
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Originally posted by Bytemite:
You don't have to have a central conflict to have a story. Granted, it's one of the most common forms of storytelling, but there's others as well: slice of life, character sketch, so on. This was a character sketch.
Without conflict, a story is essentially pointless.
You're right that it's posslbe to write a character sketch or a slice of life with a conflict, but thore are not stories in a conventional or traditional sense, and these things can't carry a story of 30, 40, 50 pages. (I forget how long ST is).
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Muddled is possible, but I disagree there's no character development. It raises questions to us, a hallmark of good character development, means that it's revealed just enough to leave facets of motivation and characterization a mystery.
I respectfully disagree that it really raised questions so much as it recapped what we already know. We are given additional information, but it does very little to actually inform the character of Book. The questions you asked are, for the most part, questions we could have asked, in a broader sense, without the story.
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Experience and professional experience are inconsequential to writing.
I'm sorry, but you're dead wrong. I'm a professional editor and writer who consumes mass media (comics, books, movies, TV shows).
While there are many people who have talent right out of the gate (otherwise, their careers wouldn't get started) experience categorically improves writing quality, especially when dealing with a challenging this.
As for professional experience: There's a hage different between how to write a short story vs a comic vs a TV episode vs a movie vs... whatever. Certainly, there is overlap in basic skills, but there's a reason many writers of one form have trouble making a successful transition to another.
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It sounds like you more just wanted to have Joss or a familiar, and Zack wasn't either.
Please stop trying to guess my intentions, especially when I think I've made them pretty clear.
I would have preferred a writer who understood how to write a long-form comic, who had the skill and finesse to pull off an difficult story (ie, one largely lacking conventional form and conflict), and someone familiar with the "voice" of the characters.
I'm sorry, but Zack Whedon was not experienced enough to pull it off. (Now, having said that, I did enjoy his 8-page DOWNTIME... perhaps 8 pages is his limit).
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How does it? Mal never learned from Book, the information is given to US, and we viewers always knew we'd get that story eventually.
Perhaps it was lost on you, but I think it's pretty clear that the scene was more than Book talking to Mal.
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Will you be angry when they make a comic concerning Inara's backstory, another mystery?
If it's poorly written? Sure.
Feel free to respond to this post if you'd like, but I'm finished with this thread right now. We're going to have to agree to disagree and I have better things to do with my time than engage in a debate that will lead nowhere except continued frustration on both sides.
www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."
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Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:
I just hope that when they DO decide to do some more comics, they hand it to the right people. It's great that Joss wants to help his kid brother stay unemployed, but Shepherd's Yale was pretty much on par with Greedo shooting first.
Couldn't possibly disagree more.
Followed it just fine on the first read, thought there was plenty of conflict, both internal and external. I thought it was excellent.
But then, Im not judging it based on a line from the movie, but on it's own merits.
"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"
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You're right that it's posslbe to write a character sketch or a slice of life with a conflict, but thore are not stories in a conventional or traditional sense, and these things can't carry a story of 30, 40, 50 pages. (I forget how long ST is).
Two words: speculative fiction. Now, maybe your style is to always include a conflict, but even though that is a common arrangement, a story does not have to have one to be a story. Or even to be an ENTERTAINING story.
As for conflicts in Shepherd's Tale, Storymark makes an excellent point about INTERNAL conflicts.
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The questions you asked are, for the most part, questions we could have asked, in a broader sense, without the story.
None of us could have guessed he was a proto-Independent. And while we all knew he was Alliance or at least had stolen an Alliance ID (both as it turned out), none of us would have guessed he was a mole. This is coming from someone who could guess the big secret in Fight Club simply by being told "there's a big plot twist at the end."
So wondering about his motivations with the proto-Independents, and whether he actually cared about the Alexander, or if he was betrayed, or if it was part of his plan, those are questions that are directly shaped by this story and wouldn't exist without it.
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Perhaps it was lost on you, but I think it's pretty clear that the scene was more than Book talking to Mal.
Way to ignore my point about foreshadowing. Also, way to imply it was lost on me, as if I'm too stupid to get it. I think you simply put some emotional stock into that scene that wasn't intended. It's okay, we all have some reactions that the creator might not intend to something, but then to apply that something that was unintended to your expectations on something else...? I mean, you're arguing that you would have preferred that Book's story remain untold, at the same time you're complaining there was no character development in Shepherd's Tale. These two positions are incompatible.
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I have better things to do with my time than engage in a debate that will lead nowhere except continued frustration on both sides.
Look. We like your stories. We do. Still Flying was good. But you want to know WHY everyone gets frustrated?
Because of stuff like this:
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I'm a professional editor and writer who consumes mass media (comics, books, movies, TV shows).
You are not the only person who consumes pop culture, you are not the only person who writes, you're not the only person who has an opinion, and just because you're a professional, in this situation, it doesn't make you more of an expert than anyone else who has access to the exact same materials you do.
And then you cop that attitude, while talking to fans of a creator, to badmouth the talent of that creator's family? Zack is a Whedon. You're talking like you think you could do better than they could, and hey, maybe you could, I'll even admit there are some directions they've taken in their stories I don't agree with. But you really didn't expect any backlash?
This is an informal fan discussion board where most of us, myself included, have no actual involvement in generating canon for the Firefly/Serenity verse. Since some of us also have some familiarity with pop culture and storytelling constructs, professional or not, we can all be said to have some amount of knowledge as regards to storytelling. Therefore this is not an argument between professionals versus laymen, it's an argument between FANS. All opinions are valid, but depending on how a person phrases their opinion, they may not win anyone over, or they might even start an argument. As such, you should not need to assert that you are a professional, as this is a subjective subject with no right or wrong answer (whether Shepherd's Tale was liked or not) and your opinion should stand on its own merits. Asserting that you are a professional actually undermines you here.
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I'm sorry, but Zack Whedon was not experienced enough to pullNOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
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Originally posted by Bytemite:
then that suggests it's really not Zack's writing ability you have a problem with, but something particular to Shepherd's Tale.
Nail on the head. Especially given the comments regarding the dialog in Serenity. Shepherds Tale wasn't what this one individual wanted.... so he'll tell us he's qualified to judge the intelligence of folks who don't share his POV.
Im still amazed he claimed there's no conflict. A man working both sides in a war, constantly at risk, having to make moral compromises, and sending his own companions to die, sometimes by his own hand (metaphorically speaking).... Seriously, what kind of "writer/editor" sees "no conflict" there....?
"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"
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I can only hope now that Joss has the license to the characters that he will in fact put out comics moving the story forward. A monthly comic would be shiny.
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I think he meant a conflict with an external antagonist, which is why I started talking about examples of stories that don't have them, but yes, I'd agree there's internal conflict.
GWEK, I know this is no fun and it seems like people are ganging up on you, but it's also no fun when someone says "I'm a professional writer, so all your opinions and interpretations are invalid and also stupid" and then walked out like that was the end of it. That isn't having a discussion, that's "I'm right, you're wrong."
And this is just a fan conversation, which, while Firefly is important to all of us, it doesn't technically matter if we're right or wrong, does it? Different people will take away different things from the show. I imagine Joss intended for it to be that way.
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I seriously swear I heard something about him okaying a serial season of Serenity, with Zack storyboarding. Unfortunately I couldn't find a link to confirm, and it might have just been this?
In any case, I hope Joss has changed his mind about whether Firefly works in a continuous format instead of just oneshots as well.
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This argument is exactly why new cannon material can be hard. Some people will love it, and some people don't fancy it, not only do they not fancy it, but they vehemently don't like it. When Byte summarized Shepherd's Tale for me I thought it was fine sounding, not spectacular, but not bad either. But there are things that Joss could do with cannon that would really be hard for me to handle and I wouldn't be okay with them and I'd dispise the man for messing up the story I love to watch and read about and review for on fanfic. Because Firefly has gotten bigger than him or anyone else, it means so much to so many people in ways that no other show seems to. So there will be strong opinions about any new cannon.
Like Byte though I wouldn't mind a story about Inara's past, how she came to be on Serenity. And if people don't like the pasts that Whedan makes up they can write their own on fanfic, which has some really good stuff in it, just as good as the show in my opinion and certainly better than the BDM. Moving the show forward is the part that scares me. Anything before the movie doesn't worry me as much, but post BDM being written in stone worries me.
You guys will just have to agree to disagree I reckon.
"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
I seriously swear I heard something about him okaying a serial season of Serenity, with Zack storyboarding. Unfortunately I couldn't find a link to confirm, and it might have just been this?
I heard that also.
Unfortunately, I don't recall where.
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I know, right? If I could just confirm it we'd have a second season of Firefly to look forward to. Maybe not on tv but I'm not picky!
Riona: I can only hope any new stuff lives up to any hopes you might have, and not your fears. But you know... I think they like writing River a little word-salad-y, it's fun. I don't think they'll ever write her neurotypical, I mean she wasn't that even when she was probably about seven.
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