Dutch rethink Christianity for a doubtful world
POSTED BY: Niki2
UPDATED: Wednesday, March 11, 2026 00:29
VIEWED: 9348
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This has been interesting.
There was a very old cave in S Africa, with a stone that naturally looked like a serpent and human-made high quality stone arrow tips (if I remember right) from 40,000 years ago at least (some believe they are as old as 75,000 years).
I link the 'knowledge of good and evil' with abstract language, and the ability to create ideas of that which doesn't exist.
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I know about original sin and the Adam/Eve stuff. I knew it was "knowledge", but I didn't know it was knowledge of good and evil. That's a very different thing. Interesting to contemplate what the world would be if that hadn't happened, but to imagine that you have to conceive of a world without knowledge of evil, which I think is beyond me. I also can't understand why God would control things so that the knowledge was "given" to them all along anyway, that seems a terribly cruel thing to do. If they were given free will, it would seem more right to let them be tempted down the line somewhere on their own, instead of manipulating it. "God" is very confusing to me.
So, are women free of original sin? If it's passed through the father, sounds like they get a free "pass"! And in only blaming Adam, it seems unfair--given man's, ahem, "drives", it would seem to me HE didn't have totally free will--tho' I get the flaw in that, he should have overcome those drives, etc.
Was the big problem that he stayed with Eve rather than going with God? I never heard that part, could you elucidate for me, please? Or did I just read it wrong?
The whole immaculate conception is beyond me, I'm afraid.
Thanx Byte!
Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off 
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Kiki:
Quote:Are you saying God didn't WANT humans to have that?? Boy, we'd sure be a boring lot, and incapable of evolving past Adam and Eve then, wouldn't we?
abstract language, and the ability to create ideas of that which doesn't exist.
Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off
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Quote:
I also can't understand why God would control things so that the knowledge was "given" to them all along anyway, that seems a terribly cruel thing to do.
Could be, but if you look at God as a parent, then he had to let them go someday.
And when they're "adult" enough to recognize the evils in the world, and love a partner more than big daddy, that's probably a good time.
My WTF @ the Christian God more comes in with the whole apocalypse thing.
Quote:
So, are women free of original sin? If it's passed through the father, sounds like they get a free "pass"! And in only blaming Adam, it seems unfair--given man's, ahem, "drives", it would seem to me HE didn't have totally free will--tho' I get the flaw in that, he should have overcome those drives, etc.
Eve was, Lilith (Adam's first wife) was, and Mary was. All of Eve's children, daughters and sons and their daughters and sons and so on had original sin. Until Jesus' sacrifice.
Before Jesus, believers used to sacrifice animals to try to gain God's forgiveness for original sin. Jesus was another sacrifice, and he didn't get RID of original sin, obviously we clearly still can defy God, and be tempted, and there's still good and evil, and we can still love and hope and create. But the symbolism of that act was supposed to be God creating a new covenant through the sacrifice of his son and absolving humanity of original sin. So it's "Okay" now that we have the potential to do evil, and be flawed, people will just be judged by what evil they DO commit, instead of the sins of the fathers.
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I link the 'knowledge of good and evil' with abstract language, and the ability to create ideas of that which doesn't exist.
1kiki, I agree, I put those in there as well. You can't tell a story without conflict, you can't paint a masterpiece without feeling.
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Are you saying God didn't WANT humans to have that?? Boy, we'd sure be a boring lot, and incapable of evolving past Adam and Eve then, wouldn't we?
No, he wanted us to have free will, that's what prompted Satan to "rebel" against God (because angels don't get free will and he was jealous), which God had also planned all along.
Them taking the fruit and gaining knowledge of good and evil had to be a CHOICE or they wouldn't have gotten free will after all. Him forbidding them from the fruit was so they'd have to choose to defy God, and they'd break free and have free will.
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I don't know; it all sounds like pettiness, manipulation and taking advantage of his power to me; it's self-contradictory in so many ways, that I'm afraid if I believed in a god, I wouldn't like this one!
Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off
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Well, that's why I didn't get into the apocalypse. Don't want to offend anyone here with my feelings on that.
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And why I am refraining from comment entire.
Interesting discussion, but nothing I can add to it that won't start a needless, pointless brawl.
-F
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Yeah. I was trying to put as positive a light on it as I could, just to be fair, but there's interpretations of it all that don't sit well with me. And that's why I'll never be Christian.
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Byte, I don't mean to be rude but.
Your writings upon this matter do not reflect how many/most Christians believe. I think you've done some research and combined all the things you've found from all sorts of Judaeism, Kabala included, and some writings you've found about ideas that have been tossed around among people from the middle ages forward. Like Lilith, I've never met anyone who actually believes in that. Sure you might be able to find someone somewhere, but I've never met any. And the idea that Christ's sacrifice doesn't cover our own sins, just innate sin is totally something I've never heard of, I've never met a Christian who thinks that. I know that you're just researching and trying to find out about stuff, but a lot of this is so obscure and, in my opinion, way off the normal belief patterns of any Christians I've known. Of course you can post whatever you want to and I think you're possibly enjoying the research, but I have to qualify to those reading that aren't CHristians that I don't know anyone who believes in some of these things. Some of them of course I've heard of and they are things that theologians have debated for a long time.
I did find it really funny when you said "Here's looking at you Calvinism", that made me laugh, you have a fun way of putting things sometimes.
As for the idea of earning plusses next to your name in the Book of Life, I don't know, I have to admit that my dad does sort of believe in that, he's mentioned it before, but its not something that really concerns me, but it is a common enough belief, at least I think it is.
I've always understood angels to have been given a point in time, or before time but that's another story, where they were given a choice what they wanted to do and that's when the whole Lucifer/Satan thing went down. And yes, the Old Testament does mention that angels were able to come to earth for a time and rut with women and have babies but that was discontinued, apparently it was seen as problematic. I don't know a lot about it so lots of people speculate about what that meant, I don't know so I won't comment, I'm open minded about that one.
About God and gender: I believe God has the emotional and understanding capacities of both. He refers to Himself as male so that's what we call him, but I believe that he has both paternal and maternal feelings for us and the rest of it, He isn't confined or limited. That's something most Christians don't seem to talk about for whatever reason but I don't mind at all and I've thought about it.
I agree Niki, this has been a nice discussion, maybe because the people who seem to be taking part in it are fairly able to discuss things in a "rational" way and not devolve into flaming.
"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya
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Reread Malachite's first post up above, apparently he DOES believe in original sin. In fact, this is the most common interpretation of the sacrifice I've encountered.
Actually, that may be tricky with the program you use, I found it:
Quote:
Christianity built upon Judaism as its foundation and claims to be the fullfillment of Jewish Law. It starts with the same premise, that mankind is not perfect, that we are not only not able to love perfectly, but also actually deliberately choose to defy what God wants of us (starting with Adam and Eve).
...
In order to assuage this punishment, the Jews established a sacrificial system by which the blood of animals acted as a substitute for their own blood.
Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_Sin
I've never encountered a sect that believes Christ's sacrifice removed ALL sin. Which sect are you?
Perhaps this is only a Mormon thing.
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