Dutch rethink Christianity for a doubtful world
POSTED BY: Niki2
UPDATED: Wednesday, March 11, 2026 00:29
VIEWED: 9348
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Make's sense to me. Have you ever had one of those teachers that would set impossible goals, but would reward and complement you on how close you got to them? Not a perfect analogy, but it's kind of how I feel about it.
My private Horn teacher in college was like that, always setting impossible goals but so very proud of how far I had progressed. On any instrument (though perhaps especially on the French Horn) you can never achieve absolute perfection. Mistakes will be made and there is always more to learn. This isn't depressing or illogical to me, it gives me something to look forward to and work towards. A wonderful quest that will never be over!
Your journey isn't 'done' when let Jesus in your heart and are forgiven, it's only just beginning. That's my take on it anyway.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Riona, if you believeQuote:then why HAVEN'T Christians improved in all this time? If it worked as you say, surely Christians would have become better than those of other religions, or better than those who have none. Yet while many strive to do the right thing, love humanity, etc., the majority do not...at least when it comes to good works and become self-aware, from my observation. At this time in history, in this country, it's exactly the opposite for people like Bachmann and many "religious fundamentalists", they are more focused on hate and judgment than loving others. How does that square with what you said?
He does work on our lives and because we are seeking Him and getting to know Him we are becoming more interested in doing the right things, loving humanity, striving to be our best/to be self aware and wanting to make positive differences in the world
Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off
Her quote only applies to those who are seeking Him and getting to know Him. Unfortunately, this may not apply to everyone you identify as Christian, or even those who identify themselves as such.
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Okay, Mal, as to your post in "my" purple 
: I never have trouble with civil discourse with people of other religions if they don't get head up that I'm buddhist or don't believe as they do. Unfortunately, the latter has been true for me all too often, so it's pleasant for me, too, to be able to converse on the subject.
As to whether Christ was a great teacher or a divinity, I'll posit this: Take an intelligent, compassionate pereson who sees things as they really are and the potential of humans, and has a lot to impart that they might find helpful in living their lives. Would it not be logical to this person that, if he were a diety (in those times of ignorance), people would listen to him and might take what he has to offer to heart more than if he put himself forth as just a human? I think it would, and I can easily see that occurring to him, and the result was exactly that. So what Christ said or didn't say about himself (mind you, I definitely don't think he did it out of self-agrandizement or any negative desire) doesn't make it so; plus there is te problem that everything written about Christ is written by HUMANS, something with which I've always had a problem.
I've got to lean on some who can explain it better than I to describe what I believe as a buddhist and what buddhism is about:Quote:
Buddha formulated his teaching in a way that directly addresses the critical problem at the heart of human existence -- the problem of suffering -- and does so without reliance upon the myths and mysteries so typical of religion. He further promises that those who follow his teaching to its end will realize here and now the highest happiness and peace. All other concerns apart from this, such as theological dogmas, metaphysical subtleties, rituals and rules of worship, the Buddha waves aside as irrelevant to the task at hand, the mind's liberation from its bonds and fetters.
This pragmatic thrust of the Dharma is clearly illustrated by the main formula into which the Buddha compressed his program of deliverance, namely, the Four Noble Truths:
(1) the noble truth that life involves suffering
(2) the noble truth that suffering arises from craving
(3) the noble truth that suffering ends with the removal of craving
(4) the noble truth that there is a way to the end of suffering.
The Buddha not only makes suffering and release from suffering the focus of his teaching, but he deals with the problem of suffering in a way that reveals extraordinary psychological insight. He traces suffering to its roots within our minds, first to our craving and clinging, and then a step further back to ignorance, a primordial unawareness of the true nature of things. Since suffering arises from our own minds, the cure must be achieved within our minds, by dispelling our defilements and delusions with insight into reality. The beginning point of the Buddha's teaching is the unenlightened mind, in the grip of its afflictions, cares, and sorrows; the end point is the enlightened mind, blissful, radiant, and free.
To bridge the gap between the beginning and end points of his teaching, the Buddha offers a clear, precise, practicable path made up of eight factors. This of course is the Noble Eightfold Path. The path begins with (1) right view of the basic truths of existence, and (2) right intention to undertake the training. It then proceeds through the three ethical factors of (3) right speech, (4) right action, and (5) right livelihood, to the three factors pertaining to meditation and mental development: (6) right effort, (7) right mindfulness, and (8) right concentration. When all eight factors of the path are brought to maturity, the disciple penetrates with insight the true nature of existence
The methodological characteristics of the Buddha's teaching follow closely from its aim. One of its most attractive features, clos
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I get that, Happy. But surely SOME forward movement would have taken place in all the millenia and given how many Christians there are on earth, wouldn't it? To me, believing man is inherently flawed and we have to accept that, so the only way to find absolution is to accept that someone else's sacrifice "saves" us is what's futile. It means we are doomed to futile lives unless we worship God and accept Christ as a divinity. As you said, for me that makes it all to easy to live falsely, and humans are all too vulnerable to laziness. Certainly the same can be said of buddhism; if we choose not to move forward on our path, it's no better than the Christian who just uses Christ's divinity to believe they're saved. But buddhism puts the onus on US to become self-aware, to know ourselves and learn to accept others as we learn to accept ourselves, thereby being (I believe) less vulnerable to judgment and condemnation.
In so many ways, like all "religions", the two have the same goal, to be the best person we can, it just bothers me that Christianity gives people an "out"; they can be whatever they want and still know that by accepting Christ and worshiping God they can get to heaven. Buddhism to me is its own reward, acceptance of ourselves and others is sufficient, and there is no heaven to strive toward or be held out as the finite reward.
I don't kow if I'm explaining at all well, all religions are complex and so is buddhism. I suppose to me it's better not to lean on anyone or anything else to judge me; if we are self-aware, we know what's right and wrong, and that brings its own peace.
Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off 
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Quote:
Bingo, Happy! If you take learning like that, it's its own reward; if you believe you can become perfect, it becomes a craving.
On any instrument (though perhaps especially on the French Horn) you can never achieve absolute perfection. Mistakes will be made and there is always more to learn. This isn't depressing or illogical to me, it gives me something to look forward to and work towards. A wonderful quest that will never be over!
Those who believe the journey is just beginning and who LIVE that philosophy are what I consider REAL Christians, and that's one of the ways in which Christianity and buddhism are the same. The difference I guess is that for us, the journey is all and there is no "forgiving" or heaven at the end, and there is no 'out' that we're saved just by believing (or, in too many cases, by worshipping without living our faith).
Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off
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Quote:
As you said, for me that makes it all to easy to live falsely, and humans are all too vulnerable to laziness. Certainly the same can be said of buddhism; if we choose not to move forward on our path, it's no better than the Christian who just uses Christ's divinity to believe they're saved. But buddhism puts the onus on US to become self-aware
On my way out so not much time for a reply, but you do realize Christians have some what if an onus too don't you? The whole repentance thing isn't just a get out of jail free card, there's kind of a commitment to do the best you can to follow Jesus's example, loving and helping others and the like.
Maybe if Christians lived for 2,000 years they would be a little better by now, but people die and new people have to start their paths at the beginning too. I wish I could have started my journey with the wisdom of my grandfather, but the best I can do is learn from his example as I find my own way (with God's assistance).
This was written in a hurry cause I won't be back till very late. I apologize if it sounds too rude or snarky, I mean no personal offense.
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I think Happy's right, because we don't live for a thousand years each new person who makes the committment to follow God starts at the beginning, its kind of like how we as humans aren't born with the knowledge of our parents, we have to figure things out anew. And like Happy said there are a lot of people who call themselves Christians, because they go to church, or because they were born in a town where lots of people are so they just say they are too. I don't believe someone is really a Christian unless they've asked Christ to be in their life and so forth. James chapter 2 in the Bible talks a lot about faith and works, how if someone is truly trying to follow Christ then they should be making choices in life and what they do that glorify him, like helping others, trying not to condemn others, understanding ourselves, caring about people around us etc.
Niki, I think those are some good explanations of your beliefs. I'm curious as to how much the teachings have altered since their inception, I ask because I suspect that in the past things were more literally viewed in regard to things like reincarnation and such, even if that's not something you guys really think as much about now.
"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya
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In some defense of Christianity, while I myself have met many uncharitable, domineering, and self-righteous types who some to think God exists to grant only their selfish prayers, there is a popular belief that even Christians go to hell. And not just Christians from other sects, but ones who have actually been bad.
The sacrifice thing doesn't exonerate ALL sins, just original sin, which is carried through the paternal lineage. So Christians are supposed to try to still tow the line and not commit too many other sins. And that does take some self-reflection... If you're doing it right. It at least attempts to make someone recognize what their flaws are and when they've wronged someone.
Sometimes. Just as many people use it to try to treat other people like garbage.
There's also the virtues, which people can practice to gain plus signs by their name in the pearly gate's guest list.
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On the other hand, being in Utah, I sometimes hear a lot of churchy talk just on the street, and I do have pet peeves.
1) In response to a tragedy, survivors are sometimes heard to say "God saved us" or "God blessed us." So, what, the other people who didn't survive were evil so he smote them?
Yeah, god saved my mom all right. He also gave her great big honkin' brain tumours multiple times in her life. Was he punishing her, but changed his mind? This popular phrase has major unfortunate implications, people, it has got to go.
2) "We owe our lives to Jesus."
No! Guys, if he died for you, he died for the people who were LIVING and for future generations. If you want to follow Jesus' example, don't "owe" your lives to only him and yourself, owe your life to everyone and get out there and do GOOD.
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There is a sect of Christians, I had a good friend in my girlhood who belonged to this school of thought, that believes that every time you sin you lose your salvation and you're humped until you get saved again ... and again and again. I don't subscribe to that view, because anyone who thinks they go a long time without sinning is kidding themselves and not me. I mean lets be realistic people, I screw up all the time, if not in my actions than in my thoughts, so saying you don't sin very often is total pridefullness, which last tiem I checked is a sin, so you better ask Christ to save you again or else. Sorry, I just feel bad for these folk.
I believe that so much of my relationship with God is based on trusting Him and I don't think I'd have much trust in him if I was always worrying about that. But some people do believe that way and that's their right. I only mention that because of Byte's comments above about hell.
I think that as people we need to be careful about what we ascribe to God. I think its very inflamatory to say that someone died because God was punishing them, that isn't our place to say and life happens, people die, maybe that person had already finished all the things they needed to do here for the world, it isn't my place to judge that. So I try to stay away from judgemental statements like that. If someone is rescued from death in a miraculous way though I do indeed feel that God helped, often through someone who was there rescuing the person. I'm glad I'm alive and here though, no matter how hard things get I love being alive and here.
"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya
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