Perspective - Some sarcasm..some real numbers

POSTED BY: Conchobar71
UPDATED: Friday, August 12, 2011 16:04
VIEWED: 1578
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CONCHOBAR71

Thursday, August 11, 2011 1:35 PM

I wrote this in 2008 in a discussion with some friends. It's strange how the argument still applies 3 years later.

It has been one of those days where I have heard several people claim that they don't want higher taxes. "let me keep my money!!"

/sarcasm I'm all for it. The way I see it, I earned it and I don't think the government should take any of it to use for social causes. /sarcasm off

I am a fiscal conservative and a social liberal, if you haven't guessed by now. Growing up I had the benefit of eating and shelter because of the NYS Welfare program. Do I think it's perfect, No. Would I be where I am today without it? Maybe, maybe not. the children aren't on welfare because they want to be (believe me, I didn't want to be..nothing was more embarrassing than standing in a lunch line with my red lunch ticket or wearing clothes that were purchased from thrift shops and the local Salvation Army.)
Their parents are the reason they are on welfare. Some can work, some cannot. Of course that comes with the caveat that work is even available. My Mother and stepfather recieved $480/month cash and $300 in food stamps, plus Medicaid. $780/month plus health benefits for a family of 5 is ROCKING and living high on the hog..let me tell you. Regardless, I still feel appreciative for that aid.

So let's look at some quick numbers:

A family of 3 (single father with 2 kids under the age of 16)

The father makes $10/hr working at Bush Industries making furniture, 40 hrs per week (2080 hrs/year). He goes to college at night (full-time with online classes) to improve his situation, taking out student loans and using financial aid to help cover the costs.

His Gross income is $20,800/year if he never calls in sick or has to go take care of one of his children when they are sick.

Right now his takehome is $320/week , he pays $120/week for childcare because he can't get out of work in time to get his 2 kids.

That leaves him with $200/week
The gas required to run to and from work as well as errands and to get his kids from daycare is around $60/week

That leaves him $140/week for groceries/rent/utilities and savings.

Rent for a 2 bedroom apartment in the ghetto costs $450/month, with utilities (being overly generous the landlord acquiesces to that demand) (=$103.85/week over 52 weeks)

This leaves the man with $36.15 to feed himself , buy laundry detergent (or dishsoap..multi-purpose for dish washing as well), toiletries i.e. shaving supplies and bath soap (he'll use that to wash his hair), and clothing for his children.

It's a noble endeavor but hey, he's screwed himself over by not living in a town where the jobs pay $20/hr (and the rent is $1000/month without utilities) and he had 2 kids.

I say screw him and his financial aid that lazy prick! How dare he expect any help from me?

To fix the tax system, I think we should:

Close the Department of Social Services - 1000's of people will be out of jobs, but hey we're saving Millions of dollars here!

Disband the Welfare system altogether. Get a job you lazy pricks!!

Disband Medicare and Medicaid - Man I'm sorry those meds are expensive GET A JOB!! If you need hospitalization tough dookie.. that's why God created Funeral homes and ditches.

Disband Social Security (after all it's broke anyways)- Sorry Grandpa..get a job you lazy prick!

Eliminate Unemployment benefits and Disability - they can work injured or at McDonalds GET A JOB!!

While we're at it, close all the halfway houses and Women's Shelters - Meh..they were all gonna die anyway..let them do it and decrease the surplus population (even better less little kids roaming around dirty)

Eliminate the Financial Aid programs (it has the word Aid in it..it has to go) - Get 3 Jobs to pay for school. Who cares if you fail your course load because you have 12 hrs/week for study and sleep..nm eating

Close all the Facilities that help care for the Elderly and Developmentally disabled. (Decrease the surplus population). Make those lazy pricks get jobs!!!!

Since I'm on a roll:

St

NIKI2

Thursday, August 11, 2011 6:01 PM

Wow. Complex; I tried to read it all but there are too many numbers for me to accumulate any understanding.

I kinda got the general gist, and it's pretty scary, speaking as one of those not in the top (or even near the top, or even the middle!) bracket, and thinking in terms of the welfare of the country as a whole.

I'm sorry you were one of our "safety netters"; so am I, being on disability. We wouldn't survive if it weren't for my husband still commuting and working at 73. I know precisely what you mean about living high on the hog; I haven't bought clothing for ages and then mostly from St. Vincent de Paul...I had to shell out some for underwear at Penny's a while ago because thrift shops don't sell underwear. All that despite working most of my life and paying taxes into Social Security (which my husband and I will have to live on when he finally can't work any more...how we will, I don't know!). I haven't gone to a movie in years, not since I became disabled; we wait for stuff to come around on cable, which is one of our biggest expenses. Obviously we don't deserve that, and the fact that we have it again proves the "poor" have too many "amenties".

Thank you for that; unfortunately it won't mean diddly squat to the righties among us, and you DO realize that, like me, you have now opened yourself up as one of the 'bums' living off the government 'teat' and will be reminded of that many times henceforth, and told to "get a job!" Just so's you know.

The rest of us, however, appreciate your efforts and understand what you're saying.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

CONCHOBAR71

Thursday, August 11, 2011 6:46 PM

Nike,

It was an interesting bit of work. Ultimately it shows that 27% of the country have/make almost no money to tax (being under the poverty level). The Top 4% ($200,000+) make over 50% of all taxable income. If we reduce or "share" the taxation based on a "fair" flat tax rate, ultimately almost all of the tax burden will fall on the middle/lower class who struggle to make ends meet now, leading to a greater divide between classes. This demonstrates to me that class warfare is a true living breathing philosophy. The easiest fix would be to make cuts to Medicare and Social Security for those who don't "need" it (Gambling, second homes, 3rd and 4th cars..do not quantify need) allowing those who do need it, to be properly cared for. We are , afterall, supposed to be the most civilized country on the planet.

Tax breaks on large businesses, wealthy citizens and off shore businesses should be removed. I think that if a business outsources jobs and manufacturing overseas, they should be penalized, not rewarded. Any incentives to move should be equallized by taxation requirements in the U.S.

I am not a leftie or a righty. I hate political parties with a passion. I fell under the spell of GWB for a short period after 9/11 and rue it even today, but Obama certainly is no savior. Any party that caters to one demographic or the other is an infirmity on the nation as a whole. I don't believe in Unions that pay-off those they are bargaining with (I'm not a supporter of politicans who take money from Public Unions, nor am I a supporter of politicians that take money from Big Business). That being said, we do live in a capitalistic society where the weak are eaten by the strong. So I am under no illusions that things will get any better. Ultimately, I envision big dogs being replaced by different big dogs who are also intent on eating the weak. In the end all I can hope is that the whole world eventually learns that each person is alive 24 hrs a day and the worth of their time during that 24 hr period is equal. Until we reach that point..we'll keep having these discussions.

FREMDFIRMA

Thursday, August 11, 2011 7:25 PM

Damn, that was the discussion equivalent of a dynamic entry!
I'm impressed, and that takes work.
Welcome to the moshpit that is RWED Concho.

S'funny that I've written at least two of those breakdowns to show just HOW poor someone is due to the amount of income eaten by unavoidable life expenses, taxes, and just how *insufficient* the "help" we give through our so-called safety nets really is, so I completely understand ya.

Of course, getting that through the head of your typical randroid is about as possible as drilling through a neutron star, having an equivalent density, but it's always worth discussin.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

NIKI2

Thursday, August 11, 2011 7:42 PM

Quote:
class warfare is a true living breathing philosophy

Amen

Quote:
Any party that caters to one demographic or the other is an infirmity on the nation as a whole

Excellent! If only we had a party that DIDN'T!

Oh, and

Quote:
We are , afterall, supposed to be the most civilized country on the planet.

That was, of course, a joke, wasn't it? [/snark]

Quote:
In the end all I can hope is that the whole world eventually learns that each person is alive 24 hrs a day and the worth of their time during that 24 hr period is equal.

You're allowed to dream, dear, just don't hold your breath!

I fully agree about SSI and Medicare, and am in favor of caps on both. If what I've read is right, there's a cap on CONTRIBUTING to SSI, isn't there? Yet no cap on how much they get in return? Smoke comes out of my ears at that... it's just plain insane to stop taxing people after a certain point yet let them receive without a cap! It's a great illustration of what you wrote: Class warfare is a true living breathing philosophy (and it's more than a philosophy!).

Oh, hell, you said so many things I agree with, I'll leave it at "what you said". It's a damned shame that those who NEED to hear you won't hear a word...sigh

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

KWICKO

Friday, August 12, 2011 2:36 AM

By the way, Concho, you've pretty much summed up the entire Tea Party platform with that initial post. I know you did it tongue-in-cheek, but that's actually the kind of thing they run on. Eliminate EVERY safety net and regulation, and let might make right in every instance.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

CONCHOBAR71

Friday, August 12, 2011 11:59 AM

The Tea Party isn't ENTIRELY wrong. Sometimes it takes some extreme viewpoints to make changes. Personally, I think the Tea Party got hijacked but that's just me LOL. I like to call them the "I'M MAD AS HELL" party and there are some days when I agree with them in part, especially when I see the smug looks on Pelosi and Reid's faces, and the Orange Glow of too much sun on Beohner's face and realize they really don't care about the country as a whole. They are more concerned with maintaining their power base.

The problem with the U.S. is that we have one side that pretends to be TOO PC ( they have no problem attacking in a highschool manner anyone of an opposing opinion while preaching love and concern for all) and the other that open's their mouths too wide and blab what ever feels like coming out. Unfortunately we have 2 parties in this country that can't seem to take some of both (because no side is entirely wrong) and come to a logical rational working relationship that benefits the country as a whole. Those decisions may effect the extremists in both parties, but the majority of the country is somewhere in the middle.

Jayne: "Ten percent of nuthin' is...let me do the math here...nuthin' into nuthin'...carry the nuthin'..."

NIKI2

Friday, August 12, 2011 3:30 PM

Excellent, Conch, and I agree with every word. I think you'll find that nobody here thinks government programs are perfect, I believe we are all in agreement that they need revamping, we just agree about eliminating them completely. And of course they've got some points; a good argument, however you bend it or go overboard with it, is only effective if it's got that grain of truth.

You'll also find almost complete agreement that our legislators care more about maintaining their power than actually representing the people. And yes, polls have shown over and over again (as have interviews with "real" people) that Americans want compromise, something in the middle. Unfortunately, those in power are too concentrated on beating the other guy than actually WORKING for the good of the country!

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

CONCHOBAR71

Friday, August 12, 2011 4:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Excellent, Conch, and I agree with every word. I think you'll find that nobody here thinks government programs are perfect, I believe we are all in agreement that they need revamping, we just agree about eliminating them completely. And of course they've got some points; a good argument, however you bend it or go overboard with it, is only effective if it's got that grain of truth.

You'll also find almost complete agreement that our legislators care more about maintaining their power than actually representing the people. And yes, polls have shown over and over again (as have interviews with "real" people) that Americans want compromise, something in the middle. Unfortunately, those in power are too concentrated on beating the other guy than actually WORKING for the good of the country!

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

Nike,

I also think that the bandwagoners (Diehard Conservatives and Liberals)are the same way. A conservative may say or do something that could make sense, but because they have an Elephant next to their name the "Progressives" will stop at nothing to villify them and any of their supporters, regardless of the reasoning or purpose. The same can be the said for conservative treatment of the Democrats. I live in NY and I can tell you that our politicians make Chicago politicans look like they are saints. We have some of the most corrupt Democratic politicians and Repubs in the nation in office i.e. Charles Rangel, Anthony Weiner, David Patterson, Elliot Spitzer, Joe Bruno, Bernie Kerik, Alan Hevesi and the list goes on.

Jayne: "Ten percent of nuthin' is...let me do the math here...nuthin' into nuthin'...carry the nuthin'..."