Dutch rethink Christianity for a doubtful world

POSTED BY: Niki2
UPDATED: Wednesday, March 11, 2026 00:29
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MAGONSDAUGHTER

Tuesday, August 9, 2011 2:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:
That is a good analogy for religion Megons, bit my tongue and cheek analogy was meant only to apply to Christianity. The common theme amongst all sects of Christianity is the divinity of Jesus Christ and the belief that his sacrifice grants us forgiveness and salvation, though we do not deserve it. Taking that out is like taking music out of dancing. It can still be a positive exercise or philosophy, but IMO just isn't the same thing. I don't understand it, but they've every right to do it.

Well if you were interested to follow the links that I posted, you would see that there were lots of beliefs held by Christians which were not to do with how you perceive them, including the divinity of Jesus. And in terms of the tolerance of the dance, plenty of christians murdered one another because someone was doing the polka when they should have been doing the waltz.

It seems to me that this church has chosen to follow the teachings of Jesus in how to live your life, without worrying about what happens to you afterwards. Personally, I've always found the philosophy inherent in a lot of Christianity that you live well to get into heaven kind of morally flawed so kudos to them for doing something different.

Granted, its a far reach in terms of being christian, but in terms of far reaches, I'd prefer to Dutchie soft liberals to the nut bags with guns and explosives any day.

THEHAPPYTRADER

Tuesday, August 9, 2011 2:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Interesting that people need to believe the story of the NT in order to accept the lessons.

It reminds me of a distinction I came across, which is the difference in following a religion ABOUT Jesus (his divinity, his power, etc) v the religion OF Jesus - love your god above all and your neighbor as yourself.

I never said you have to believe in his divinity or even existence to follow his example. If you take the divine out of it, is it really still a religion though? This approach just seems more like a philosophy than a religion is all.

EDIT @Megons

I have not checked out your links because I have not made it home yet and am responding via itouch (late work day). Links can be frustrating on this device so I generally only view them on my PC.

1KIKI

Tuesday, August 9, 2011 2:14 AM

AFAIK both Zen Buddhism and Confucianism count as religions though Zen has no god at all, while Confucianism has ancestor worship as a tag-along cultural value.

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Tuesday, August 9, 2011 2:18 AM

Do you have to believe in divinity to be a religion? I'm not sure frankly.

In reality, I know that a lot of people have a whole host of reasons to follow a faith or attend church. Some do it for spiritual reasons, for their belief in the divine. Some do it for the community. Some for the values. Some just do it because their parents did. Personally, I've known a number of people who don't believe in the afterlife or a God as described in the OT or the NT who have attended church and called themselves religious. If I ever go, it's because of the music.

FREMDFIRMA

Tuesday, August 9, 2011 4:36 AM

Honestly I think the guy would be better off as a Unitarian Universalist - apparently he's come to the belief quite naturally without even knowing about it, so someone should step forward and guide him down the path he seems to have found, or at least help his faltering steps.

As far as "religion in general" Happy - I am more than well aware, there's plenty and to spare of dogmatic and intolerant nastiness amongst Pagans too, mostly directed at each other and on occasion with actual violence as opposed to New Agers usually holding the line at snark and nasty looks.

Thing is, what I hold against Christianity is the deliberate, intentional, and fully malicious perversion of our Government and Legal System as a weapon of war against those who do not share their twisted little puritan morality, or believe the same ridiculous myths - I have my own unspeakable morals and my own ridiculous myths, thankee, and would prefer not to have theirs forced down my throat at the point of Government bayonets every time I fucking turn around.

That and I really do got "issues" with Christianity in general that do not leave me entirely reasonable about it, having been roughed up, shot at, stabbed more than once and damn near actually burned at a "stake" - which was really just a pole at an abandoned driveway, but those fucking burns were real, who knows what might have happened if not for the timely intervention of otherwise-enemies, grrrr..

Of course, I take people as people, individuals, but as a whole, as a theme - no, I'm not gonna be reasonable or rational about it, why should I be, THEY certainly aren't !

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

RIONAEIRE

Tuesday, August 9, 2011 5:54 AM

UU, that's what I said, that seems to be what he believes, so maybe he shouldn't stick with teaching where he's teaching and let someone else come in who fits better with that.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

NIKI2

Tuesday, August 9, 2011 6:03 PM

Oh, goodie, a real discussion/debate! How wonderful!

Happy, neat rant. I'm so glad you're here to remind us that not all "Christians" are as unchristian as we often see, it's good to have perspective and it gives me hope. I know intellectually that "squeaky wheel gets the grease" and that the extremists represent only a small minority, but they ARE so squeaky that sometimes it's hard to keep perspective and remember what a small minority they are!

As to taking Christ out of Christianity, I don't think that's what they're doing. They seem to be saying he was a MAN, not a god; a very great man, but not someone to be worshipped, rather someone to be listened to who preached some real valid and good things. To me that's putting Christ INTO Christianity, in a way he really belongs, rather than as someone for figurines to put on your dashboard and pray to. I, too, have always disliked the idea that because Christ was (or allowed himself to be) martyred, all our sins are "forgiven" and there is no onus (or not enough) on Christians to actually pay attention to what he preached and follow his teachings.

But as for

Quote:
If you take the divine out of it, is it really still a religion though? This approach just seems more like a philosophy than a religion is all.

Buddhism. However, buddhism is viewed and referred to as a "religion", so, while those of us who FOLLOW it see it as a philosophy, not a religion, most everyone else does seem to view it as a religion. Kind of a question with no answer, as I see it.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

NIKI2

Tuesday, August 9, 2011 6:04 PM

Quote:
Early Christians believed a whole host of things that we'd find peculiar today, or wouldn't look anything like Christianity. There is nothing pure about the beliefs of Christians, they merge and meld a whole host of philosophies and teachings from other belief systems, including other religions. In the early days, there were many, many sects that believed different things. People bickered over the divinity of Jesus, the relationship of Jesus to God, the virginity of Mary.

Very good, Magons, and again, important perspective all too few seem to be able to embrace. I also agree that

Quote:
It seems to me that this church has chosen to follow the teachings of Jesus in how to live your life , without worrying about what happens to you afterwards. Personally, I've always found the philosophy inherent in a lot of Christianity that you live well to get into heaven kind of morally flawed so kudos to them for doing something different.

I don't know how successful these people will be, but I applaud them for what I view as what they're trying to do.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

NIKI2

Tuesday, August 9, 2011 6:09 PM

Riona, I think your personal prejudice is affecting how you view this issue. I know you are devoutly Christian, to the point of disbelieving evolution, so, respectfully, I think you are seeing this issue through a somewhat prejudiced viewpoint. You certainly seem to show some pretty strong feelings about thie attempt to make Christianity less "religious", if you will.

But consider this: The Church has lost a lot of credibility because it insists on everything being rote, that there is only one "way", only one real "religion", and if you don't believe in it, you're going to hell. Much like the corollary Magons presented with her dance. Personally, I think if a lot of the dogma were taken out of the Church and it was made more reasonable, it would attract more people and do more good as a result. As man evolves (or thinks he does!), the things the were needed to explain the inexplicable become discarded, harder to accept, yet the Church continues to DEMAND they be accepted without question. If the CONCEPTS of a religion are what's important, making it more accessible--given most of us have SOME spirituality at least--might make it more appealing to today's population. As it is, "Christianity" as a religion has been steadily loosing followers for some time now.

Ah, here is someone who puts it better than I could:

Quote:
This Christmas season, 78% of Americans identify with some form of Christian religion, a proportion that has been declining in recent decades. The major reason for this decline has been an increase in the percentage of Americans claiming no religious identity, now at 13% of all adults.

The trend results are based on annual averages of Gallup's religious identity data in America that stretch back over 60 years. One of the most significant trends documented during this period is the substantial increase in the percentage of American adults who don't identify with any specific religion. In 1948, only 2% of Americans did not identify with a religion. That percentage began to rise in the late 1960s and early 1970s. Eleven years ago, in 1998, 6% of Americans did not identify with a religion, a number that rose to 10% by 2002. This year's average of 13% of Americans who claim no religious identity is the highest in Gallup records.

The percentage of Americans who identify as Catholic, Protestant, or some other non-Catholic Christian faith has been concomitantly decreasing over the years. This suggests that one of the major patterns of religious transition in America in recent decades has been the shift from identification as Christian to the status of having no specific religious identification.

In 1948, 91% of Americans identified with a Christian faith. Twenty years ago, in 1989, 82% of Americans identified as Christian. Ten years ago, it was 84%. This year, as noted, 78% of all American adults identify with a Christian faith.

There has also been a slight increase in the percentage of Americans who identify with a religion that is not specifically classified as Christian. Sixty years ago, for example, 4% of Americans identified with a non-Christian religion. By 1989, 9% of Americans were in this non-Christian religion category, the same percentage as today.

Does the decrease in religious identity signify that religion is losing its importance for Americans? There was a substantial drop in the percentage of Americans who said religion was "very important" in their lives between the 1960s and the 1970s -- from 70% in 1965 to 52% by 1978 -- but in recent decades, this "very important" percentage has remained relatively steady. The overall figure today -- 56% -- is slightly higher than it was 31 years ago.

Gallup ha

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