London Burning

POSTED BY: piratenews
UPDATED: Friday, November 28, 2025 17:01
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GEEZER

Tuesday, August 9, 2011 3:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Not the Stonewall Riots. And people fought back. It was most definitely NOT non-violent.

But while it, along with the violent police response, was a seminal event in gay rights, it was the steady non-violent series of protests, gay pride events, etc. that got things to where they are today. In general, violence, like the riots after Dr. King was killed, didn't accomplish anything useful.

I'd say that the violence of authority against peaceful sufferage, civil rights, Vietnam war, and gay protests had more to do with changing attitudes than any violence by protestors.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Tuesday, August 9, 2011 3:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Not the Stonewall Riots. And people fought back. It was most definitely NOT non-violent.

You included stonewall in your edit, so my reply didn't make much sense.

You asked if tidy protests ever worked. I believe I answered them. I'm not a big believer in people taking to violence to express their anger or outrage, be it in protest, or their everyday life. I'm not quite a pacifist because I do believe there is a time to defend yourself from the violence of others, but defensive violence is quite different to offensive violence and even then I'd be exhausting all other avenues first.

Once you cross into the violence territory its hard to come back.

And again, reading back. Geezer is saying it better than me.

GEEZER

Tuesday, August 9, 2011 3:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Too bad historical facts prove you wrong.

Name a social change in the U.S. that was caused exclusively or mostly by violence on the part of the people protesting for it.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

KWICKO

Tuesday, August 9, 2011 3:48 AM

Yup, if you want violence to work in your favor, you have to be willing to have it inflicted upon you by the authorities, in full view of the media. You have to be nonviolent, and have violence thrust upon you, it seems; only then will people begin to question the authorities and their actions.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

1KIKI

Tuesday, August 9, 2011 3:49 AM

Geezer

Your historical view is stuck on 'quaint'.

'Quaint' women in 'quaint' long white dresses and 'quaint' white porkpie hats marching behind a big banner, 'quaint' black folk singing and marching, 'quaint' gays having outlandish parades. When tptb don't think they have anything to lose, they give nothing up. You can politely parade and sweetly sing and flaunt your costume all you want - unless there is the threat of muscle if those demands are not met - nothing happens. You of all people should know that: desegregation was accomplished at the end of the federal gun.

RIONAEIRE

Tuesday, August 9, 2011 3:57 AM

This is an interesting discussion. Kiki, I agree with you that wanton willy nilly police shootings are absolutely not okay and that people need to stand up for themselves and say it is NOT okay. A lil violence if protesters are attacked by the cops, defending oneself and each other, is fine, makes perfect sense. But burning down buildings and wanton distruction? That doesn't seem productive to me, not to mention it takes away from the general public's sympathy and empathy for the protestors, who are now rioters. You're right that history is ugly sometimes Kiki, I don't dispute that. But rioting of this sort is not seen by most as a positive way to get your message across and affect change.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

GEEZER

Tuesday, August 9, 2011 3:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Geezer

Your historical view is stuck on 'quaint'.

I think not.

Nevertheless, name a social change in the U.S. that was caused exclusively or mostly by violence on the part of the people protesting for it.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

1KIKI

Tuesday, August 9, 2011 4:05 AM

Been through the LA riots myself - CERTainly an UNcertain time. Mostly though it was thousands of people looting b/c, hell, with all those people who's going to stop you? The small stores that got burned down - were stores that generally had been ripping people off for years and had very poor community relations - as later investigation and testimony showed.

FWIW - that is my experience with large-scale rioting.

1KIKI

Tuesday, August 9, 2011 4:21 AM

Geezer

Biggest march you never heard of - they politely marched, cleaned up the trash and went home. Oh, and got nowhere.

2004 March for Women's Lives

The April 25, 2004, March for Women's Lives drew a record 1.15 million people to Washington, D.C., to protect and advance access to a full range of reproductive health care options, including abortion, birth control and emergency contraception.

Otherwise, here's a Wiki link for you as an example and some questions - which marches were non-violent, which do you remember, and which accomplished anything at all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_protest_marches_on_Washington,_D.
C.

FREMDFIRMA

Tuesday, August 9, 2011 4:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
I agree with the angry lady. Burning down shops and houses belonging to your neighbours is a hell of a way to protest.

I concur, it's nonsensical and counterproductive.
That and it's just plain MEAN, ain't no call or cause for it, and to do it is to make those involved as bad or worse than those they're supposedly protesting against.

Mikey is dead-bang right about the impulse though, problem is that impulse comes right back up against a pre-programmed fear and obedience, and it all goes to hell between their ears and they don't know what to do so they take it out right then and there on those around them.

What they lack, is DIRECTION, something which can be ever so helpfully applied via one smartass with a megaphone - but honestly, the truth ?

You're much better off if that DOESN'T happen, cause the loss of life and property from these riots, when they finally calm down, will be far, far less than what WOULD happen if the powers that be were *actually* realistically threatened and cut loose the hounds of war upon their own people - do you have ANY IDEA what it'd be like if several strike aircraft clusterbombed a street packed with rioters ?
*shakes head*

That's why I strive so hard to work with other methods, other tactics, going toe to toe is not only counterproductive, unless you CAN fight the army, and if so, why not just take over ?

Noncompliance is the first method, sabotage another, so too is economics, but violence should be reserved for single individuals only, and for specific reasons ONLY **AFTER** failure to address the matter through channels.
(For Example: I would have supported a violent mob kicking down the doors of Congress and forcibly seating Victor L Berger and fighting any attempt to remove him.)

But this... this is just jackassery, angry people who've just completely lost it after one too many provocations, dangerous to themselves and everyone else.

But thank your lucky stars there ISN'T some yahoo out there with a bullhorn shouting helpful advice, cause think about where THAT would go.
(Mind you, I'd do it - say if they were TEA Party wackjobs all wound up, I'd do it just to CAUSE that slaughter cause they fuckin deserve it.)

ETA: Kiki - I don't think it's whether they're violent or not, so much as by who's rules you play the game, cause when you play by the rules of the enemy, on their turf, on their terms, that is gonna happen - when you bring your own rulebook, well... anything can happen, especially if you are both clever and willing to showboat, sensationalize and play the ever living hell out of it - you don't think I do the overlord thing just cause I get a kick out of it, do you ?
I mean, I do.. hehehe, too much, probably, but the flash and the flimflam baits attention, and it's attention you WANT - if the also-ignored G20 protestors in PA woulda followed my advice, they would have had this huge protest - IN PITTSBURG, via last minute bus trip, leaving all these cops in Philly standing around going WTF and man what a media coup that woulda been, right ?
Ain't WHAT you do, it's HOW.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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