If Joss brought back Firefly in 2013....
POSTED BY: OPPYH
UPDATED: Saturday, September 10, 2011 00:54
VIEWED: 19781
PAGE 3 of 6
Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
I'd be excited and worried all at the same time. I guess Dollhouse has me worried that Joss has lost his touch. Maybe he'd go back to Firefly and wouldn't be able to conjure up the same magic. I don't think any new episode could live up to that much hype. Pretty sure it would feel disappointing at first.
I doubt that very much. I would like to refer to a brilliant author-Robert E. Howard. He created Conan The Barbarian. He created a slew of other characters, and stories(most of them uninteresting) but whenever he wrote a Conan story, the character he was most passionate about it was quite amazing.
I have always felt Joss was most passionate about the Firefly verse(even more so than Buffy). Give him the opportunity to do more Firefly, and I think we would all be floored, and astonished.
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70's TV FOREVER
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Quote:
Originally posted by Moose:
Isn't their current Friday line up Pro-wrestling?
Unfortunately, yes.
This is why they need a strong series to give them some validity again. Firefly could do that.
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Sorry to continue to thread-jack. But not sorry enough to stop just yet... :)
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Originally posted by Bytemite:
I don't disagree with the assessment that the characters started out unsympathetic, and that it lacked external conflict early on, but I guess perhaps I don't see those as deal breakers.
I mean no offense here, but if you don't see those things as deal breakers, then I suspect you don't have an understanding of how screenwriting or the TV/movie industry works.
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It was a difficult premise, and maybe even a bad premise, but I disagree that it failed in EVERY way.
To be clear: I'm not saying that the entire 26 episode arc fails in every way, but in every SIGNIFICANT way, from a writing or commercial standpoint, the early episodes of DOLLHOUSE fail. If the show did not have Joss's name attached to it (and Dushku's might not have hurt), it would never have been renewed for a second season. Indeed, I suspect it would not have lasted past three to five episodes.
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Often times a character will start out as unsympathetic and GAIN sympathy. That's not a sign of bad writing.
I don't know how to say this without it coming of as inflammatory, but, I'm sorry, you're wrong on both counts.
Keep in mind that "sympathetic" doesn't necessarily mean "likeable." It means that the audience cares about the characters for some reason. (There are tons of "likeable" characters that are not in the least sympathetic). Common approaches to making a character sympathetic are to make them an underdog, make them an expert at something, make them funny, or show that other characters like or respect them.
Although characters may become more likeable or sympathetic as their story progresses (this is almost a given in a good story/character arc), if the audience is not invested in the story, they will not continue to watch the story. If your audience doesn't care about your characters, they don't want to go on the ride with you and your characters, and your story fails. (Yes, there are exceptions to this rule, but not nearly as many as you would think).
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Choosing to make the whole cast unsympathetic at first is risky ground, but it's actually been done successfully before, like in every crime drama show you might care to name.
Again, false.
The crime procedural is a very specific animal, in which the details of the crime itself and the details of the crime and investigation take priority over the characters. However, that DOESN'T mean the characters are not sympathetic.
What does almost every successful procedural have in common from the first episode? The protagonists are experts, often quirky, who are fighting for a "noble cause" (they're cops, lawyers, or doctors). They may not be "fun" or "deep" characters initially, but they are certainly sympathetic characters because they are focused and skilled individuals demonstrating a level of expertise that most of us only wish we could have (in a positive, and noble field).
It is no surprise at all that the most successful procedurals center around quirky characters like Grissom and House. Not only do they have the respect of their peers and the audience (one point of sympathy) but they are entertaining to watch (another way for a character to be sympathetic).
DOLLHOUSE, on the other hand, started out featuring a cast that mixed non-characters (can you really say you "liked" or "respected" Echo or any of the other dolls early on? How? They didn't have personalities!) with a bunch of people involved in a reprehensible endeavor. It's true that Mal and his crew are equally criminal, but stealing gold coin from the Alliance is far more "victimless crime" than sending Echo out to be repeatedly raped.
Arguably, Ballard and maybe Boyd are the most sympathetic characters to start, except that Ballard is so very boring and Boyd is really just the best of the criminals. I mean, let's be honest, his job boils down to making sure that Echo doesn't get raped too hard.
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As for the external coNOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I'm a fan of Firefly, much more then a fan of Joss. Unfortunately one of the things that made Firefly so good was the fact it was under the gun from day one. Joss had full run with the comics and I really don't care for them. I just don't see Joss bringing Firefly back under the gun like he was the first time around, but I think he needs that.
Plus you would have to have a lot of time that passed between the Movie and the new series. So much so it would change the whole dynamic of the show.
I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
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Quote:
I mean no offense here, but if you don't see those things as deal breakers, then I suspect you don't have an understanding of how screenwriting or the TV/movie industry works.
Oh, of course you meant no offense.
Look, I may not be a good writer, and I'm definitely not a professional, nor am I in the show biz, I don't match up to your Still Flying series, but I do write. Your opinion is as valid as mine.
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but in every SIGNIFICANT way,
Disagree. For reasons I've already stated.
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I don't know how to say this without it coming of as inflammatory, but, I'm sorry, you're wrong on both counts.
Uh huh. And then you go on to elaborate on pretty much what I'm saying like it's a counter point?
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if the audience is not invested in the story, they will not continue to watch the story. If your audience doesn't care about your characters, they don't want to go on the ride with you and your characters, and your story fails.
Which is subjective. What were we talking about before? Oh, objectivity versus subjectivity? Gee.
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(Yes, there are exceptions to this rule, but not nearly as many as you would think).
Self-contradiction!
Also there's a lot of examples of successful ones I can name. Quite a number are nineties anti-heroes, who are generally brooding sociopaths and not very likeable at all. Another example is potentially the Sopranos.
It's not about whether they're unlikeable to start with, as characters in Dollhouse may be considered to be, but whether they have a story arc that develops into sympathetic-if-not-likeable characters. Granted, this doesn't happen in four episodes, but when you start OUT completely unlikeable when does it ever?
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The crime procedural is a very specific animal, in which the details of the crime itself and the details of the crime and investigation take priority over the characters. However, that DOESN'T mean the characters are not sympathetic.
Read again. Did I say crime/police procedural?
Anyway. Mostly I just got pissed off because you got up on a high horse, I really have no interest in disrupting this thread further.
Now do you REALLY want to talk about Dollhouse, or do you want to imagine a nifty fantastic reboot of Firefly?
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Hate to continue the thread jack, but you're wrong about "Epitaph One" being the intended pilot. That would be "Echo," which is only on the DVD set, never aired. "Epitaph One" was intended as an epilogue when Joss thought that would be the end of the line. I think he was as surprised as anyone when FOX renewed it.
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I'll bet I'd like Byte's story way better than your weird Still Flyin story from what I've heard of it.
Yeah I couldn't watch Dollhouse because they created these sweet touched folk and then put personalities on them so they could go get raped and then turned them back into touched folk, I couldn't handle that emotionally so I only saw a few episodes. Plus the only parts I enjoyed watching were the cute touched bits at the beginning and end, but seeing those only made me more upset that they were sending sweet touched folk out to be used for sex so I couldn't watch. I know that wasn't the main point of the story and I didn't mind having friends tell me what happened, but that thing was something I couldn't get past so I couldn't watch, made me upset.
"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya
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>_>
I may have my personal disagreements with an author or even their story choices, but stories should be taken on their individual merits. Still Flying has its merits, and fans, and I won't detract from that. It is not an easy thing to face rejection and put writing out there for people to see. Worries about our stories are our biggest vulnerability. While I will engage in constructive criticism, when I'm arguing with someone I keep their stories off-limits, because it's easy to unintentionally hit someone where its tender and hurts the most. I will not chase off any muses.
I'll PM you about Dollhouse.
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I just said that because I've heard some weird things about Still Flyin, from his/her own admission. I just thought you felt like s/he was being unfair so I couldnt' help it.
"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya
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Quote:
Originally posted by OPPYH:Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
I'd be excited and worried all at the same time. I guess Dollhouse has me worried that Joss has lost his touch. Maybe he'd go back to Firefly and wouldn't be able to conjure up the same magic. I don't think any new episode could live up to that much hype. Pretty sure it would feel disappointing at first.
I doubt that very much. I would like to refer to a brilliant author-Robert E. Howard. He created Conan The Barbarian. He created a slew of other characters, and stories(most of them uninteresting) but whenever he wrote a Conan story, the character he was most passionate about it was quite amazing.
I have always felt Joss was most passionate about the Firefly verse(even more so than Buffy). Give him the opportunity to do more Firefly, and I think we would all be floored, and astonished.
Well the problem for me is that I've had so much time to watch and rewatch every episode. I've found all sorts of little things that make the episodes shine. A brand new episode in one viewing pretty much can't live up to that.
I know with the unaired episodes I saved them and rationed them out. I was disappointed by all of them. That is until I got over the fact that they didn't reveal anything new about the characters and rewatched them a bunch of times. Now I like them all just fine. I'm pretty sure any new episode would suffer the same fate.
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