The Batman.... live action thoughts
POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Wednesday, July 6, 2011 21:58
VIEWED: 7005
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Warning: Mini-Bat-essay coming...
Superheroes live in a fantasy world, IMHO. To try and set a superhero movie in so-called 'real life' is incredibly tricky (So far, Iron Man has been the best at achieving any real degree of that, and mainly because of the SF content serving to suspend disbelief).
Goofy Batman (the '66 series, Batman & Robin) works on its own nutty level.
Batman Forever is such a mixed bag...
Batman begins & TDK take Batman to a level he's never been to before in film, a quasi-real-life but with fantastic elements. In some ways, it worked better than anything else ever done. In some ways it seemed forced, though. Too many 'real-life' questions linger (for me) with those movies (yeah, maybe I think too much).
But the two Burton/Keaton Batman movies were amazingly successful at creating their own bizarre reality in which Wayne, his motivation, his weaponry, his car, and even his nemeses were nearly 100% acceptable without any serious reservation.
IMO, those two films are part of history. Never to be repeated. Possibly never to be equaled (in live action, anyway, the animated series was phenomenal, but that's not the discussion here).
Okay; blast me! HAHA
The laughing Chrisisall
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I have always thought that the film "Hulk" (The Ang Lee one) was too peppy. The split screen was too gimmicky, the huge dogs weren't heavy enough (same as the ripped-apart tank, they were CGI, but seemed to lack real physics behind them, like balloon animals without helium) and the final arch enemy (the lightning father) was really straining my suspension of disbelief to its breaking point.
And don't get me started on the new back-story it invented.
Now, the newer one ("The Incredible Hulk" with Edward "The Illusionist" Norton) was a great film.
"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"
-Douglas Adams
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Personally, I love the Nolanverse because of the realism, but I'd also be thrilled with more "fantastic" elements (I'm still hoping that Nolan's upcoming Superman reboot shares the same 'verse).
In the DVD commentary to Ghostbusters Harold Ramis comments on the Domino Theory of Suspension of Disbelief --start with something utterly real, then introduce the tiniest element of fiction (something untrue, but still probable), then take that element just a bit further (something improbable but still plausible), then a tiny step further (implausible, but still possible), and further (impossible, but still rooted to what you've established previously). Eventually, you have a giant anthropomorphic marshmallow stomping down main street, and you haven't lost the audience.
I think that approach is the best way to do superheroes --start out with reality, then slowly build on it until the fantastic elements seem like the logical progression.
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We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Warning: Mini-Bat-essay coming...
Superheroes live in a fantasy world, IMHO. To try and set a superhero movie in so-called 'real life' is incredibly tricky (So far, Iron Man has been the best at achieving any real degree of that, and mainly because of the SF content serving to suspend disbelief).
Goofy Batman (the '66 series, Batman & Robin) works on its own nutty level.
Batman Forever is such a mixed bag...
Batman begins & TDK take Batman to a level he's never been to before in film, a quasi-real-life but with fantastic elements. In some ways, it worked better than anything else ever done. In some ways it seemed forced, though. Too many 'real-life' questions linger (for me) with those movies (yeah, maybe I think too much).
But the two Burton/Keaton Batman movies were amazingly successful at creating their own bizarre reality in which Wayne, his motivation, his weaponry, his car, and even his nemeses were nearly 100% acceptable without any serious reservation.
IMO, those two films are part of history. Never to be repeated. Possibly never to be equaled (in live action, anyway, the animated series was phenomenal, but that's not the discussion here).
Have to say I pretty much agree with you here on all counts Chris.
I believe it's all about your attitude when you go into the cinema in the first place. Sometimes you just have to be in the porper mood for some of these superhero films. Right now I'd rather watch the Adam West ones because they're just so much fun, but when I was in a bit of a dark period in my life, the BURTON ones really cut the mustard! I still hold those in high regards and Keaton for me will always be Bruce/Batman.
My best friend who is a cinematographer now just can't deal with the Nolan films. His big gripe is that Nolan overburdens his narratives with contrived intellect that frankly fall to pieces when a guy dressed like a bat suddenly enters shot...
I'd also put THOR right up there too.
Cartoons - http://cirqusartsandmusic.blogspot.com
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Batman, for me, has always been the one. There are other superheroes I like a lot but none of them ever compared to Batman. Although, strictly speaking, I don't class Batman as a superhero but that's for another time.
Batman 60's - Great fun that isn't to be taken seriously in anyway and was never meant to be.
Batmna Forever + Batman And Robin - Terrible movies who's only saving graces were Alfred and that Clooney could have made a great 'older' Bruce Wayne/Batman. The rest isn't worth typing about.
Batman + Batman Returns - As a big Tim Burton fan I love these movies and consider Returns the slightly better of the two movies. Mainly because Basinger is a little too wooden for me, her performance just doesn't sit right. Batman Returns has the excellent Danny DeVito as Penguin (who you almost feel sorry for) and Michelle Pfeiffer as Catwoman. Meow!! Need I say more?
Batman Begins + The Dark Knight - Nolan has done a brilliant job of not only rescuing Batman in film but also bringing it into an almost real world setting. These films also show why he is so feared by criminals and how the stories of him being a phantom or 12 foot tall etc would have started. Excellent stuff.
I don't like to compare Burton's Batman to Nolan's Batman although I can see why people do. I really like both directors and both of their takes on the Batverse. But they take different approaches to the core ideas and end up with different results. IMO both are as good as each other. Nolan has the realism side of things and Burton has the comic book feel. Although I agree that Keaton makes the better Batman, even though Bale is very good.
I think the reason why Batman and Iron Man have both achieved a level of 'real-worldness' is because both characters are ultimately human. They may use their brains, fighting skills and technology to fight evil but strip all that away and you are left with just a man. All the other major heroes that I can think of are either alien, mutants or subjects of genetic alteration etc. That puts the human born amongst them into a 'superhuman' category.
@The Somnambulist:
I obviously don't know your friend but from that comment it sounds like the kind of BS some film students would come out with in trying to appear clever, intelligent and knowledgeable by going against the successful and/or popular. It seems like he just doesn't get the movies or doesn't want to.
It's like what happened during Spielberg's heyday when students would state that he never made films of any substance or with any real grit. They basically disliked it because he (generally) made family friendly films and was very good and successful at it. So they picked up on things that weren't in his movies and slammed him for it.
I'm not trying to have a go at your friend because I only have that little bit to go on but that's what it seems like to me.
"The greatest invention ever is not the wheel. It's the second wheel." - Rich Hall
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Lwaves.
I guess I should fill in the gaps regarding my friend. He isn't a student. Far from it, he is a porfessional cinematographer and must be in his tenth year as a DOP by now -- or close to it. Mostly independent stuff but recently he's had two big productions, with studio distribution.
He and I have been best friends for 16 years and I must admit he's prone to such statements. We do often clash with films. We once spent an entire sunday arguing about the merrits or lack thereof of iRobot and Cloverfield. On both counts I liked he disliked. Later he did a complete about turn and decided they are good flicks after all!
However from a professional view I think he almost has to be somewhat petulant. It helps him up his game, and forces him to really understand his craft. It's a process born out of frustration at not yet being asked to DOP for the film equivalent, in visual style, to Blade Runner (Surely the cinematographer's wet dream).
A few of us often rib him about the fact that he's just blowing hot air until the day he finally gets that gig with Michael Bay to be DOP on Bad Boys III.
However in his defence I should say that he often enjoys Nolan's films at the time, but is later burdened with a sort of retrospective distate. This happened with Inception and with Memento. I sort of understand it about Memento as it is a bit of a one trick pony. But it's done well. So fair enough.
By the way. I totally agree with you're assessment of Batman Returns. I loved DeVito as the Penguin. Fella should have had an Oscar for that performance! (Off topic -- Your favourite Burton film? I'm curious because I'm indeed a fan of his too)
Laters
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Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
I guess I should fill in the gaps regarding my friend. He isn't a student. Far from it, he is a porfessional cinematographer and must be in his tenth year as a DOP by now -- or close to it.
I didn't actually think that he was a student just that his comment reminded me of some I've known. Maybe he just has the mental age of one.
Quote:
I must admit he's prone to such statements. We do often clash with films.
A few of us often rib him about the fact that he's just blowing hot air.
However in his defence I should say that he often enjoys Nolan's films at the time, but is later burdened with a sort of retrospective distate.
I know someone like that but in a different way. I'll recommend some films I think he'll like and he'll reply that they look crap or boring or something along those lines. He'll 'begrudgingly' borrow a few to watch and when he returns them he'll be saying the same thing - that he didn't like them or that they were just okay. Then some time later he'll be telling me that he saw these films and they were great, classics etc. When I bring up his earlier comments he swears he never said that. He was a film student many years ago so that might explain part of it.
Quote:
By the way. I totally agree with you're assessment of Batman Returns. I loved DeVito as the Penguin. Fella should have had an Oscar for that performance! (Off topic -- Your favourite Burton film? I'm curious because I'm indeed a fan of his too)
Well thanks for the easy question!
Hmmm....fave Burton film?
I want to say Nightmare Before Xmas but he didn't direct that so I won't count it.
If I'm going to be real honest it would probably be Edward Scissorhands just because it seems to include all the things I like about his work. It has a sympathetic main character, off-kilter humour, an emotional side, characters you dislike and it's all wrapped up in a dark fantasy world.
This would be closely followed by Batman Returns, Corpse Bride, Batman, Beetlejuice and Big Fish (I have a soft spot for this type of story/film).
Then Sleepy Hollow, Sweeney Todd, Alice In Wonderland and Charlie And The Chocolate Factory. I didn't really like Mars Attacks, the less said about Planet Of The Apes the better and I haven't actually seen Ed Wood.
I think that's all the major releases?
So what's your fave Burton flick(s)?
"The greatest invention ever is not the wheel. It's the second wheel." - Rich Hall
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Scissorhands has it by a country mile. I love that film. The only thing that spoils this otherwise perfect film is Winona Rider; she's terrible in this. However it stands as a minor masterpiece!
Then I'd say it's Sleepy Hollow. I just love the design of it and I think it's maybe his best story/narrative.
Followed by
Beetlejuice
Batman Returns
Ed Wood (you should see it)
Big Fish
Pee Wee's Big adventure (It's just so sweet and simple)
Mars Attacks.
The rest, if I'm honest, I'd say I'm so so about.
Chocolate Factory I didn't like and while Apes has it's problems Giamatti wasn't one of them and I wish he'd work with him again. Thereafter, I've yet to see Alice or Sweeney Todd.
Charming beyond belief though is VINCENT !
Cartoons - http://cirqusartsandmusic.blogspot.com
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Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Scissorhands has it by a country mile. I love that film. The only thing that spoils this otherwise perfect film is Winona Rider; she's terrible in this. However it stands as a minor masterpiece!
Then I'd say it's Sleepy Hollow. I just love the design of it and I think it's maybe his best story/narrative.
Followed by
Beetlejuice
Batman Returns
Ed Wood (you should see it)
Big Fish
Pee Wee's Big adventure (It's just so sweet and simple)
Mars Attacks.
The rest, if I'm honest, I'd say I'm so so about.
Chocolate Factory I didn't like and while Apes has it's problems Giamatti wasn't one of them and I wish he'd work with him again. Thereafter, I've yet to see Alice or Sweeney Todd.
Charming beyond belief though is VINCENT !
Nice that we agree on Edward Scissorhands as it is such a beautiful movie. I get what you mean about Winona Ryder as well, she wasn't very good and I've never considered her a good actress, but in some ways it seems to fit her character of a naive, innocent teenager who is 'controlled' by others.
Sleepy Hollow would have been higher on my list except that I've seen it so many times it has lost some of it's appeal. That's my fault not the film's and if it was a Best Of list it would be a lot higher.
The only reason I watched Sweeney Todd was because it was Burton. I don't like musicals at all but gave it a go and it looks brilliant, is well played but why do they have to sing!! Why couldn't he just do a non-musical version.
Alice In Wonderland looks fantastic (especially in HD) but that's kind of it. I like the story but it's been done so many times that it feels like the re-tread that it is. There is nothing in there to make it really stand out. He should have done something more akin to American McGee's Alice as they would be a perfect match.
I'll check out Ed Wood on your recommendation and try to find Vincent as well.
"The greatest invention ever is not the wheel. It's the second wheel." - Rich Hall
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I'm not into musicals either which is why I've not yet seen Sweeney Todd. I'm thinking I could go post modern and watch it without the sound and maybe even fast forward the 'numbers'... Might work? I've heard great things about the look of it and that makes it very compelling; at least for me anyway.
Vincent is a nifty little extra on the Nightmare Before Christmas DVD.
Oh and I forgot Frankenweenie too. That's also a little gem. Very sweet and brilliantly twisted :D
Cartoons - http://cirqusartsandmusic.blogspot.com
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