The premise, Joss's genre playground, and the problem. (slight movie spoiler!))
POSTED BY: Ghoulman
UPDATED: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 16:17
VIEWED: 9326
PAGE 2 of 4
Quote:Forget the Atlantic, it died before leaving the country.
Originally posted by Misguided By Voices:
haven't seen Legends of the Rangers because for some reason it vanished before crossing the Atlantic
Gorram Canadian TV.
-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
in a movie there is really only so much you can do the time is limited.. just take the x files movie for example...I really think the whole reason Joss is doing the movie version of FireFly is to drum up intrest in the T.V series so that he can bring it back...lets hope it works..only if he gets to do it as a series again lets hope it never aires on Fox
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I think good shows (or fiction...whatever) get boring when the creators really beat the premise into the ground and leave nothing for the imagination to latch on to.
Look at Star Wars: the first three movies are really cool. The main plot gets resolved, but we're left with a galaxy of unanswered questions to ponder and think about. Characters like Tarkin (who is this guy that's not afraid of Vader?), Wedge (who is this guy that's such a hotshot pilot he survives all three movies?) and Owen Lars (who is this guy that knew the truth about Luke?) are only as interesting as the questions associated with them. Stuff like how Han and Lando go way back, or Obi Wan's training of Vader let's the viewer explore aspects of the idea not covered in the film, which is what makes an SF movie worth watching for me.
Compare this with the new Star Wars films (and the deluge of books, games, etc.), which are so focussed on explaining the how and the why of the first three that they don't offer any new imaginational territory of their own.
This is why I hope Firefly has a good run, and then packs it in before it gets bad. I would *hate* to see lines of toys and comics and spin-off books. It would suck to know, in exact detail, Mal's childhood, or exactly how many planets are in the 'verse, or why Jayne is afraid of Reavers. And how much cooler is Book when all we know is that something's up with him.
Uh, yeah. I hope that addresses the point of this thread in some way.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
^^ ah, certainly. Good point. 
Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:
in a movie there is really only so much you can do the time is limited.. just take the x files movie for example...I really think the whole reason Joss is doing the movie version of FireFly is to drum up intrest in the T.V series so that he can bring it back...lets hope it works..only if he gets to do it as a series again lets hope it never aires on Fox
Yes, movies are different than TV presentation and there is a great danger of Serenity being just another made for Film *chuckle* summer silly. But I've faith in Joss... as I said.
Aside from people talking about a particular show falling into self reference (to the point of parody) I'm really forwarding a giant "jump the shark" for Sci-Fi in general.
As I said, many genres fall into repetitive self reference. Currently, I see Joss' creations as being an antidote to ... er, "genre fatique".
... and I'm suggesting Serenity might contain a refinment of the Firefly premise in this regard.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I tend to agree about genre trappings- and it is why so few people break out of their genres. The ones who ARE cross-overs get degraded for not being "purist" and somehow untrue to the genre's intended design- SF people are most known for this sort of rabid loyalty.
Part of why I loved about FF is that I didn't find the characters at ALL stereotypical or stuck into their own genres. They are predictable in their own ways- but not predictable in ways which genre standards would make them.
I, for one, don't think Inara has anything close to a heart of gold. I think she's mostly a scared little girl who has learned to control almost everything she can in order to keep herself safe but still has no sense of true security. She's got talents and I think within herself she's a good person, but she's anything but "standard genre fare."
And I would say the same goes for all the other characters.
And I would point out that, UNLIKE the blithe oblivion found in Angel or BTVS, (ie "Hey are you ok? You've been acting very strange and not at all happy" "Oh yeah, I'm just {insert lame obvious excuse}." "Ok, that's good, no problems here either.") in FF no one puts up with anyones crap or pretends there isn't an issue when there is. Their lives cannot be lived with such luxury.
Perhaps the difference is that, while FF DOES do battle with some pretty strange things and futuristic situations, they almost always are mostly battling themselves or other people. BTVS and Angel had weird supernatural things to avoid the actual "people" issues.
It's great story-telling all around and one could write pages and pages dissecting and contrasting how Joss' style both flows the same and is totally fresh across all of his shows.
The movie? I hope they don't water down the western elements but I DO hope they punch up some of the "yes we're really in the future" signifiers. Otherwise, the story will carry itself along just fine. The movie should do fabulously the first weekend if marketing goes well. FF and SF fans will flock a few times over to see it. The trying point will be if it survives to the following weeks and can truly capture an audience.
Exactly, but I think my precise words were 'don't'
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
What is SG-1, B5, and ENT? Yup, Star Trek plots over and over again. A very simple formula that is the standard for Sci-Fi TV shows today. They are all the same. Certainly I could say the newer Star Treks were proof of a formula being strip mined to death.
I don't mean to sound snippy, but... what the hell are you smoking?! 'Cause I want some.
Babylon 5 is just recycled Star Trek? Sorry, but I can't agree with that at all. Babylon 5 is twenty times the show Star Trek ever was. It has its cheesy moments, I won't deny it, but it has more character development, more guts to change the status quo, and more intricate plots than Trek ever attempted - well, with the possible exception of Deep Space Nine. Gene Roddenberry's baby may have spawned a lot of pretenders over the years, but I really can't believe anyone would consider Babylon 5 one of them.
Hell, if Babylon 5 ripped off anything it was Lord of the Rings.
I think any perceived failings of the SF genre only exist because Gene Roddenberry struck on a successful formula back in the Sixties. The irony, of course, is that at the time it wasn't successful at all - that only came later. When he created Star Trek: The Next Generation twenty years later, it may have been just an extension/improvement on that formula, but it still pushed SF a little bit closer to the mainstream. It was The X-Files that jumped straight into the mainstream, by fusing SF with the anthology series, the cop show, and the horror movie. They struck gold for a while, but milked it for too long and ended up a shell of what it was at the beginning. But The X-Files was seen as new and different (by some) and it spawned a lot of imitators because of that, much like Trek.
The interesting thing here, is that The X-Files was seen as original because it mixed its genres. By today, with TV and movies in abundance, originality - TRUE originality - is in short supply. Any one genre has its formulas, and after a while they become predictable and, ultimately, counterproductive to good storytelling. This isn't a fault of sci-fi exclusivley, it's a flaw with every genre.
In television (and movies) there is rarely a truly original SF concept. Even things like the The Matrix (seen by many as a breakthrough masterpiece of new ideas) borrowed extensively form other places. What made it work was the way in which the different pieces were woven together to SEEM fresh.
Even Firefly, near-perfect though it clearly is, isn't a brand new concept. Hell, people have pointed out before how the crew of mercenaries in Alien: Resurrection could almost be seen to be an early blueprint for the idea that would eventually become the crew of Serenity. But the two are barely comparable - why? Because Joss Whedon's work (and life) in the intervening years has affected his writing. Not only that, but crew of Serenity and the 'verse they inhabit is almost totally different. Because of that, the chances of covering the same ground is almost nil. But just wait and see how many ignorant movie critics compare Joss' work on Alien: Resurrection to Serenity.
What makes a show different is the personalities involved, both on-screen and behind the camera. If Joss Whedon wrote Star Trek it would be unrecognisable. Ditto if Joe Straczynski wrote Firefly. But if these people spent too long in ANY one genre, the dangers of creative blockaging are obviously increased. One person can only say so many things under the same topic before they repeat themselves.
And for those wondering about Joe Straczynski's Babylon 5 spin-off TV movie, Legend of the Ranger, it did cross the atlantic, because I live in Wales. It is currently showing on the SKYMovies channels, of all places. Keep an eye out for it.
-----------------------
"Today we were kidnapped by hill folk, never to be seen again. It was the best da
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
^^^ Outsider, you're not getting me. What I'm talking about is a deconstructional view of the structure (or more simplistically: the formula) of genre and it's limits while at the same time wondering where Joss can go with these, shall we continue to say 'trappings', now that he has used them all up! I apologize for my lack of academic language if that's what's confusing.
When I talk about say; character differences, or lack of them, it is only after stripping away little details that the characters from Buffy to Firefly become the same thing. That's the nature of deconstructing... and hey, might not mean a thing to ya. And why should it?
Having said that, those shows (B5, SG-1) aren't much worth the film they were done on. Sure, there is some Sci-Fi fun and hey, nothing wrong with that. ENT is just utter crap however.
Quote:
Originally posted by EmeraldEAD:
I tend to agree about genre trappings- and it is why so few people break out of their genres. The ones who ARE cross-overs get degraded for not being "purist" and somehow untrue to the genre's intended design- SF people are most known for this sort of rabid loyalty.
Part of why I loved about FF is that I didn't find the characters at ALL stereotypical or stuck into their own genres. They are predictable in their own ways- but not predictable in ways which genre standards would make them.
SNIP!
Nicely put. I'm in the same boat as you are and enjoying the view into Joss' genre stylings. Hey, it's why I love the guy.
Still, ever try to get someone interested in a show with these tired old trappings? Sure, dig in and it's Joss fun, intelegent, great characters who NEVER betray thier character, etc. All good stuff.
I'm hoping Joss can go beyond this. I know he can. I hope he does.
But do the Joss fans out there have a dream or direction for Joss to go? Yes, this is the third time I've asked.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
But do the Joss fans out there have a dream or direction for Joss to go? Yes, this is the third time I've asked.
Well, I disagree with you on the B5 front, but have some sympathy for what you say about there being no new SF stories - but isn't that true of every genre. Deconstructed down, there are no original stories anymore, and it has never been truer that "it ain't what you do its the way that you do it".
The cop show, the legal drama, the war movie; there isn't anything new anymore, but few would dispute that The Shield, Murder One and (the first 20 minutes at least) Saving Private Ryan did something new with the old routine.
You seem to be critcising the genre Science Fiction for containing science fiction - what else would it involve but space ships, aliens etc. SF is in fact the only genre that can, and does, expand its trappings - the legal drama has to adhere to the structure of the law, the cop drama has the crime and punishment. The concept of the SF show is unlikely to stretch things, but in every decent show, there will be individual episodes that add something to the genre, be that a new idea or a new twist on an old idea.
As to Joss, I'd like to see him do something out of the SF genre, see if he could shake up the cop drama say. I'd like to see Joss be allowed to cut loose as JMS was on Jeremiah and Supreme Power - without the cnstraints of network censorship.
"I threw up on your bed"
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
SF....Science Fiction.... It does not merely contain spaceships and aliens. The premise behind it is that any element of Science is taken and a story is made from it.
If you want a perfect example of how Science Fiction works well without even touching the realms of Aliens or Space in general then try 'Village of The Damned' or the book it was based on 'The Midwitch Cuckoos'. With the film, go for the original Black and White one not the 90's remake, that was awful.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I have yet to really 'get into' the buffy-verse and I think I just figured out why. I saw the first 4 episodes of Angel last weekend. About 3 and a half of them were pretty great--gritty, morose, plot-twisty, smart. Then, I think it was about 10 minutes into the 3rd episode, Oz walks in. Right there the tenuous reality of the soulful vampire seeking redemption (but not TOO MUCH redemption) gets sidelined for all the "Hey, it's Oz! Oz is here! Look, how cool is that, it's Oz!" And for the next 10 minutes I'm watching BtVS and wondering why me, oh lord? Then the episode gets back to business and Angel is getting tortured a la War Stories and when things have gotten their bleakest: "IT'S OZ TO THE RESCUE!" Oz drives a fricken van through a wall and saves the day! Certainly the silliest/lamest stunt I've ever seen Joss & co. pull. Then the 4th episode was fine.
See, Joss isn't going to jump the shark, because he pretty much jumps the shark every few episodes of Buffy and Angel. He does it in small doses though, so it kinda inoculates the fanbase from thinking the show has gone too far. If you like BtVS, then you kinda like going a little too far now and again, see what I mean?
Firefly is different. It's very real-world, even though it's SciFi. Its obsession with American history grounds it like no SciFi I've ever seen. How can a show set in the future have a sense of history? But Firefly does. There's nothing whimsical or fable-like about its world. You believe Firefly exists. From the very first episode of the very first season the show is exactly what it sets out to be. It is one of the most artistically mature T.V. shows I've ever seen. It's hard to imagine the creator of that world betraying that or lapsing into self parody. I wouldn't be surprised if at some point Joss simply finished it. After four or five seasons of the best television imaginable he would bring the story to an incredibly satisfying close.
(ALTHOUGH: Trash came VERY close to being one of Joss's mini-shark jumps. "Looky-loo, it's beloved criminal crazy, Saffron! I don't want to miss a MINUTE of the wacky hijinks!" The episode stretched Mal's funny-man hat all out of shape and for the first 5/6ths of its running time made the entire crew look like witless fools with no longterm memory. But I digress...)
Or do I?
I think Joss has a taste for travesty and if the show were gonna go south I think it would have to go thataway.
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME