Bush = Dumb Ass
POSTED BY: Succatash
UPDATED: Friday, August 20, 2004 04:20
VIEWED: 16362
PAGE 7 of 12
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Geezer,
Do you also claim that Iraq is FREE and DEMOCRATIC when the basics of national policy were shoved down their throats by Bremer and the CPA? Whether YOU or I think these are good things is beside the point - it supposed to be Iraq's decision.
No. Probably not totally free and democratic. Closer than they were a couple of years ago. It will probably take some time to get to the point where there is a stable enough infrastructure to allow complete autonomy. The folks there have no experience with representative government at all and it takes a while to learn and develop the mechanisms.
Now let me ask you one. Do you think that if we'd just loaded up and left after the fall of Baghdad that they'd be closer to a free and democratic government right now? With no one at all in charge, and no way to set up a government, whoever had the most guns would be running the country now, and I doubt that "free and democratic" would be on their agenda.
Regardless of how anyone feels about the war, it happened. Do we not now have a responsability to provide at least the basis for a stable government for Iraq, having taken their old one away? Or should we just abandon them to the al-Sadr militia or the "insurgents" who use suicide bombs and beheadings as everyday tools of policy?
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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I propose they decide, and while it's a topic, that they have control of their national resources, economy, and policies.
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To anyone who thinks that Kerry and Bush are cut from the same cloth and that a vote for one is a vote for the other consider this. A first term Kerry who has to worry about re-election is better than a second term Bush who can do whatever he wants without worrying about the results. Just thought I'd put that out there.
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
I propose they decide, and while it's a topic, that they have control of their national resources, economy, and policies.
Please explain to me how this would work. If the Americans left tomorrow, and took the provisional government and the CPA with them, do you expect that the infrastructure to control Iraq's resources, economy, or policies would just appear out of thin air? Not to mention the infrastructure to support a stable, democratic government. Do you think that the radical Islamist militias would just throw down their guns and start voter registration drives?
If you can come up with some actual method of providing security, infrastructure support, and self-government for Iraq that doesn't involve the USA, the CPA, and the provisional government, I'd be glad to listen to it. Until then I have to believe that if we leave now, we'll be leaving the Iraqis to much worse than they had before.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Right now, I haven't a clue as to how to fix Iraq. George (dumbf*ck) Bush apparently didn't realize that it's a lot easier to break things than it is to fix them. Part of the solution would be to give Iraqi assests back to the Iraqis. Of course, that is exactly what ISN'T going to happen because that was the point of the whole war to begin with.
I suspect that that since Allawi is the CIA's man (Chalabi was the neocon's candidate) "they" are going to go forward with the original CIA/ State Department Plan, which would involve reversing de-Baathification and putting Baath Party members back in power under new ownership... I mean, leadership. I have no idea how that is supposed to work.
So, while I cogitate on the solution for Iraq's ills, let me leave you with this thought: The LAST person I would want solving this problem is the person who created it in the first place. Why anyone want to put George (d) Bush back into power for a four-year chance to screw more things up is beyond me.
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[ sarcasm]Sorry, I sometimes forget that it's all a big conspiracy to make Iraq the 51st state. But lets assume for a second that the Carlyle Group, the Tri-Lateral Commission, the Illuminati, and "Them" decided to allow Iraq out of their evil clutches.[ /sarcasm]
How would the country's assets be "given back" to the Iraqis, when they never had them previously. Saddam and the Baathists had the assets while the people lived at subsistance level. It takes some sort of bureaucracy, private or public, to handle the resources necessary for a modern country to run.
Regardless of who is President next year, they're going to have to deal with Iraq. Calling Bush (or Kerry) a dumbass doesn't make that fact go away. If you don't like how things are being handled, come up with some constructive solutions. Bush-bashing may be fun, and may give you that nice feeling of moral superiority, but it doesn't really do much for the man on the street in Iraq.
Also recall that, even with a pretty good basis in representative democracy from the colonial assemblies, it took the Americans quite a while to come up with the government we have now. And they were left pretty much in peace to do it. Do you think that the Iraqis, with no history of self-government and various armed factions wanting to take over, can do it instantly?
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Geezer, stop putting stupid statements in my mouth. You REALLY don't know what I know. Example:
Did you know that there was/is a deep division between the CIA/State Department/Pentagon military on the one hand and the Cheney/ Rumsfeld/ civilian advisors (neocons) on the other about what to do in Iraq? Of course not.
Now, Chalabi shopped his candidacy for the Prime Ministership to the State Department, the CIA, and finally the neocons. He offered USA and British oil companies first crack at contracts if he should so modestly become PM. The State Department and the CIA found that he was unreliable (one the refugees that he offered to the CIA as a source of info on WMD failed a lie-detector test) but the neocons uncritically swallowed everything he had to say, setting up the Office of Special Plans (OSP) under Dougles Feith to funnel this info directly to Rumsfeld and Cheney without having to go through that pesky CIA vetting process.
Did you not find it strange that Chalabi- member of the Iraqi Governing Council and heir apparent to the interim government- should suddenly be exposed as an Iranian spy, and that Allawi- a man with CIA contacts- should arise out of nowhere to become interim head of Iraq? Or did you just brush that off as "instability"?
Where did I find this? A lengthy transcript of an NPR interview with Chalabi gave me the basic info. Being very bitter about having been jilted by the CIA and under pressure to come up with an answer about why his WMD information proved to be so unreliable, Chalabi said a lot of unflattering and revealing things about the inner working of the Administration. More importantly, everything he said was subsequently borne out by later events. Feel free to look it up yourself.
So, no more stupid straw-man arguments from you, or I'm just going to have to stop responding to you.
-------------------
Now, as far as the solution to Iraq:
Do you happen to remember one of the causes of the American Revolution? It had something to do with economics... what was it...? Something about taxes and representation?
The fact that the nascent USA had no outside forces draining it economically, was protected from "free trade" by large oceans on both sides, and also had limitless expansion room (a fact that the Founding Fathers referred to quite often and counted on to buffer our early economic and social problems) helped us become the powerhouse that we are today. Those options are not available for Iraq.
I've already said that I can't come up with a good solution for Iraq. I know that it can't be JUST a political solution (democractic elections) because any nation in economic extremis will be politically unstable. Aside from the economic factor, it will be near-impossible (I'm being optimistic here) to satisfy all three large goups in Iraq: the Kurds in the north (with oil), the Arab Shiites in the south (with oil) and the Sunnis in the middle (no oil). It's like Yugoslavia after Tito.
It may be that Iraq just enters into the list of "failed states" and festers for another three decades. I don't think that the Administration wants that to happen- they had so many lovely geopolitical and business plans for all that Iraqi oil- but for the life of me I can't imagine how to pull this bacon out of the fire.
BTW- BUSH BASHING is perfectly legitimate. HE created a huge problem with no solution in sight. Why is it that "I" - lowly citizen of the USA with absolutely no part in creating the problem - have to be "constructive"? All along, Ive been doing my darndest to point out the shortcomings to my elected representatives and being treated as if I'm just a hair's-breadth short of being a traitor. Now, THAT'S a contructive approach! Shouldn't George (d) Bush be tagged with responsibility? And if not- why not? But if you come up with anything productive, be sure to tell the Adminstration- I'm sure they'll listen to you.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Geezer, stop putting stupid statements in my mouth. You REALLY don't know what I know. Example:
Did you know that there was/is a deep division between the CIA/State Department/Pentagon military on the one hand and the Cheney/ Rumsfeld/ civilian advisors (neocons) on the other about what to do in Iraq? Of course not.
Now, Chalabi shopped his candidacy for the Prime Ministership to the State Department, the CIA, and finally the neocons. He offered USA and British oil companies first crack at contracts if he should so modestly become PM. The State Department and the CIA found that he was unreliable (one the refugees that he offered to the CIA as a source of info on WMD failed a lie-detector test) but the neocons uncritically swallowed everything he had to say, setting up the Office of Special Plans (OSP) under Dougles Feith to funnel this info directly to Rumsfeld and Cheney without having to go through that pesky CIA vetting process.
Did you not find it strange that Chalabi- member of the Iraqi Governing Council and heir apparent to the interim government- should suddenly be exposed as an Iranian spy, and that Allawi- a man with CIA contacts- should arise out of nowhere to become interim head of Iraq? Or did you just brush that off as "instability"?
Where did I find this? A lengthy transcript of an NPR interview with Chalabi gave me the basic info. Being very bitter about having been jilted by the CIA and under pressure to come up with an answer about why his WMD information proved to be so unreliable, Chalabi said a lot of unflattering and revealing things about the inner working of the Administration. More importantly, everything he said was subsequently borne out by later events. Feel free to look it up yourself.
So, no more stupid straw-man arguments from you, or I'm just going to have to stop responding to you.
I'm familiar with Chalabi and his travails. I also note that in one paragraph you mention that he was found unreliable, and then base the rest of your argument on statements he made to NPR while "...bitter about being jilted by the CIA..." and "...under pressure to come up with an answer about why his WMD information proved to be so unreliable...". Could it be that his statements were a little self-serving?
I admit that the sarcasm may have been a bit heavy, but whenever I see "they" in quotes, i.e.
Quote:
I suspect that that since Allawi is the CIA's man (Chalabi was the neocon's candidate) "they" are going to go forward with the original CIA/ State Department Plan...
...it just brings out the devil in me. And other statements you've made would lead one to believe that you think it's "all about the oil".
You would probably consider it naive of me to think that the US is doing its clumsy best to give the people of Iraq a stable and independent government. Ever consider that I might think you a bit paranoid for believing it's all just an evil plan to steal their oil?
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Geezer, you've been bobbing and weaving to avoid answering ANY questions. Neither do you provide any back-up for YOUR assertions, while demanding it from others. Instead you throw (unsupported) mud at everything people have to say. *
But in answer to the Iraq question, I'll answer your question if you answer mine. But since I already provided one answer - now you have two to answer.
The first question is this:
Quote:
The numbers don't take into account Iraqi dead.
HOWEVER, does it not bother you that people died for a lie? That Iraq is not 'free'? Or are you so propagandized that things like that don't matter anymore?
The second question will follow on your answer to the first.
* edited to remove a comment I realized, on reflection, was uncalled for. My apologies for any upset it may have caused.
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Yes, I consider it naive of you. My first response is- When we have suported so many repressive regimes in the world- INCLUDING PROVIDING SADDAM WITH WMD MATERIAL AND GROUND TRUTH- why would we suddenly balk now?? Would it perhaps not have something to do with the world's second-largest proven oil reserve that Iraq happens to be sitting on???
Nah...
My second response is- OF COURSE Chalabi's statements are self-serving. If they had not MORE IMPORTANTLY been borne out by subsequent events I wouldn't have given them much credit.
All along, I have been using the model of "It's all about the oil" and so far the model has been pretty durable and pedictive. Its' explained everything from why we protected Iraqi oil assets and let the rest of national security go hang, to why we wrote total foreign ownership into the "100 orders". If we had REALLY wanted to create stable Iraq, we would have done things much differently. The only modification that I've had to make to the model is to include the "reconstruction" contracts which basically funnel US tax dollars and Iraqi oil revenues directly into Haliburton.
Please see my comments under predictive modeling.
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