Autism rates double in Utah
POSTED BY: Bytemite
UPDATED: Tuesday, May 17, 2011 06:01
VIEWED: 3477
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Byte, I would like to address your comment
Quote:Fluoride? What's with the focus on "fluoride"?
Let's see, largest population concentration in the state along the Wasatch Front, notable change in an environmental factor that bioaccumulates in parents, passes the blood-brain barrier, and bonds to fat cells in the brain. Gee, I dunno.
"Fluoride" is a singly-charged negative ion, like the "chloride" in sodium chloride (table salt). The charged compounds which make up various salts- sodium, potassium, magnesium (positively charged) and chloride, carbonate, fluoride (negatively charged) dissolve in water (which has a positively charged end and a negatively charged end) but not fat (which doesn't have any localized charges).
"Fluoride" actually binds to CALCIUM, not fat, to create the insoluble salt calcium fluoride. (The emergency treatment for fluoride exposure is calcium.)
FluorINE is the element... pure fluorine, which exists (unstably) as a gas consisting of two fluorine molecules (F2).
Perhaps the concern that pops up is because of the fluorine in antidepressants? That is a different form of fluorine, called fluorocarbon. That is where fluorine is chemically bonded to carbon, not a free-floating ion. That is a very strong bond. There are a lot of uses of fluorocarbons... in refrigerants (Freon), non-stick coatings (Teflon, Stainmaster carpets, Scotchguard, microwave popcorn bags etc) and in other medications. The basic chemical used to make Teflon is perfluorooctanic acid (PFOA), and is found in the blood and fat of most Americans.
Just as an aside... as a chemist, I refuse to store or heat foods in plastic.
DT: The problem with using a map is that the diagnosis rate varies from practitioner to practitioner, county to county, state to state, and nation to nation. There have been at least three large surveys in the past ten years trying to answer the question whether the increase in autism is due to an increased incidence or more sensitive detection... the latest in S Korea. Every survey turns up even more kids with autism than the one before.
Until there is a definitive test for autism - a blood test, for example- there will be confounding variations in results.
To go back to some really original work: About 12 years ago, scientists sought to answer the question whether autism was caused before or after birth. So they went back to a treasure trove of neonatal blood samples (maintained by a horrible state "government") and tested for the most likely neurodevelopmental chemicals they could think of, and found that kids with MR and autism had elevated levels of four peptides, especially VIP (vasoactive intestinal peptide).
I don't understand why those results haven't been followed up... perhaps kids with autism retain higher levels of VIP, and a blood test could be developed.
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You have to remember that fluorine is rarely going to spend much time as JUST fluorine, and will have a tendency to convert to the ionic form. Fluorine atoms are going to loosely bind to any molecule that they're part of, and it's also going to tend to be towards the outside of that molecule. Fluoride ions, such as from the compounds used in water fluoridation, will also strip hydrogen in organic molecules, and if those organic molecules are ones you need and use that are inside you, it can make a mess.
Subnote: you seem to be assuming that any fluoride ingested orally will simply immediately bind to the calcium in tooth enamel. I find that somewhat optimistic.
This is just the first results that I got when I googled, just a quick read of the summary will show that fluoride is taken up in organic molecules.
Now these fluoride levels are of course no where near the much lower levels introduced during water fluoridation for a community, but I'm troubled by the fact that this can occur at all. What's more, humans and their evolution in salt-rich environments may very well increase the uptake.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20658207/PMC349898/
Fluoride will get into proteins in the brain, and bind to fat cells (which may also be in the brain). It'll also oxidize the hell out of stuff.
You're a chemist, and you've taken O-chem (I haven't), and I'll bow to that. I'm an environmental scientist, with my degree cross-field between geology, pollution control, and water chemistry. You have a better idea of what's toxic and what ain't, why, and how much, but I do know a few things, and I see enough here to concern me. Perhaps it is true that just about ANYTHING can concern me, but considering the volume of study produced on the subject of fluoride toxicity, I think this subject might actually be significant. It's also true that there's a large volume of study showing that fluoride is safe for human consumption, themselves based on some ancient and poorly controlled studies from the 1960s that started off widespread fluoride use in dentistry. If I question why we so casually ingest poison every day, and question the interest to add even more of that poison to the environment, I'd like to think I have sufficient reason.
I applaud you for not microwaving in plastic containers, though, an issue that I feel is very similar.
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83 Cases of Autism Associated with Childhood Vaccine Injury Compensated in Federal Vaccine Court
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/83-cases-of-autism-associated-
with-childhood-vaccine-injury-compensated-in-federal-vaccine-court-121570673.html
It's illegal to sue vaccine companies when they injure or kill you. Isn't that special?
So your (borrowed) taxdollars pay the vaccine injury bills.
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Quote:Have not forgotten. In fact, I ASSUME that it is in its ionic form. That's why it's called fluorIDE.
You have to remember that fluorine is rarely going to spend much time as JUST fluorine, and will have a tendency to convert to the ionic form.
Quote:Er... no. "Fluoride" is already associated with a positively charged ion, which is how they put it into the water. Think of "fluoride" as negatively charged ion looking for an attractive positively charged partner. Why would it "want" to change its current partner for one that is less available? (In this case, hydrogen bonded to a molecule). There are plenty positively charged ions to be attracted to.
Fluoride the ion, used in water fluoridation, is going to loosely bind to any molecule that it's part of, and it's also going to tend to be towards the outside of that molecule. It'll also strip hydrogen in organic molecules, and if those organic molecules are ones you need and use that are inside you, it can make a mess.
Quote:No, I'm not. I assume that it will float around until finds some calcium or magnesium or other metal to bind to.
Subnote: you seem to be assuming that any fluoride ingested orally will simply immediately bind to the calcium in tooth enamel. I find that somewhat optimistic.
If ingested or absorbed in sufficient quantities, it CAN bind with enough calcium to interfere with muscle activity (calcium release causes muscle contraction) and stop the heart... and other muscles, of course.
Quote:Sodium fluoride is fully soluble, so sodium remains available.
I also note you need both calcium and sodium for your nervous system, and that fluoride combining to any significant degree with either could be bad in a way that I don't think I need to elaborate on.
Also, you have to look at relative amounts. The human body contains four or five POUNDS of calcium. The water contains micrograms.
Quote:Now, this is where you lose me. I did a quick google search and came up with zip. Furthermore, I don't see any chemical logic behind it. If fluoride binds with brain tissue and fat, why not chloride? And why the brain? Why not fat in the abdomen?
This is just the first results that I got when I googled, just a quick read of the summary will show that fluoride is taken up in organic molecules. Now these fluoride levels are of course no where near the much lower levels introduced during water fluoridation for a community, but the fact that this can occur at all is a deep concern for me. What's more, humans and their evolution in salt-rich environments may very well increase the uptake.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20658207/PMC349898/
Fluoride will get into proteins in the brain, and bind to fat cells (which may also be in the brain).
Quote:As fluoIRNE, yes, it will oxidize stuff. As hydrofluoric acid, it will etch glass and give you very painful acid burns. If you expose enough of your skin, your may absorb enough to bind up all of your soluble calcium and stop your heart.
It'll also oxidize the hell out of stuff.
Quote:
You're a chemist, and you've taken O-chem (I haven't), and I'll bow to that. I'm an environmental scientist, with my degree cross-field between geology, pollution control, and water chemistry. You may have a better idea of what's toxic and what ain't, why, and how much, but I do know a few things, and I see enough here to concern me. Perhaps it is true that just about ANYTHING can concern me, but considering the volume of study produced on the subject of fluoride toxicity, I think this subject might actually be significant. It's also true that there's a large volume of study showing that fluoride is safe for human consumption, themselves based on some ancient and poorly controlled studies from the 1960s that started off widespread fluoride use in dentistry. If I question why we so casually ingest poison every day, and question the interest to add even more of that poison to the environment, I'd like to think I have sufficient reason.NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Er... no. "Fluoride" is already associated with a positively charged ion, which is how they put it into the water. Think of "fluoride" as negatively charged ion looking for an attractive positively charged partner. Why would it "want" to change its current partner for one that is less available? (In this case, hydrogen bonded to a molecule). There are plenty positively charged ions to be attracted to.
I edited that part to make more sense.
But, still, sure it can break up organic molecules. Imagine it's dissolved in water, which is H20, but spends most of it's time as H+ and OH-. Throw in something like fluoride into the water, you bind up the loose hydrogen, and the solution becomes more basic, right?
The human body is mostly water, so it's easy to transfer that analogy over. Now throw in human organic chemicals in the mix, sometimes and often loosely bound by Van Der Waals forces and protein folding odds and ends bonding. Stuff doesn't become inert just because it's in an ionic form or because it's already bonded to other stuff.
Throw in an unnecessary and strongly electronegative ion, and that seems like a problem to me.
Quote:
Now, this is where you lose me. I did a quick google search and came up with zip. Furthermore, I don't see any chemical logic behind it. If fluoride binds with brain tissue and fat, why not chloride? And why the brain? Why not fat in the abdomen?
It's not so much that it's preferentially in the brain, it'll bind to fat cells just about everywhere. Particularly in the liver, because it IS technically a toxin and some of it does get slated for removal. But it CAN end up in the brain because it CAN bypass the blood brain barrier. Looking at rats given fluoride you'll find fluoride bonded to lipids all over, and you'll also find it affected the somatic size of certain organs, including the brain.
The reason it binds to fat cells has to do with proteins in the cellular membrane. Particularly Adenylate Cyclase, though I imagine there are others. I can't say I fully understand the mechanisms, as I said I'm not a chemist in the pure sense, but I've read some studies on this and this appears to be what's going on. Your Teflon binds to fat cells and can be found in the blood, why does it seem so surprising that fluoride ions can have similarly destructive effects?
I imagine chloride DOES bind as well, though there's less study on that because chloridation of water is not such a hot button issue. But if you want to ask me if I think chloride in water and chlorinated solvents can have unexpected results on the brain as well, then yes, I think they do. There's a number of military bases in the vicinity of where I live, and they have fairly significant chlorinated solvent plumes. And when some of those plumes volatilize into a building, as happened recently, it can have wide varying and unexpected effects (especially considering the normal expression of symptoms due to exposure to this kind of chemical), including brain cancer.
Quote:
In some places of China, India and Australia, fluoride occurs naturally in very high concentrations. There is evidence of dental and skeletal fluorisis, but as far as I know no increased rates of autism.
I actually found an article that some researchers did comparing a naturally fluoridated area with a non-fluoridated area in China and how children did on IQ tests. I'd have to find it again, but there was a correlation. I acknowledge that doesn't necessarily mean autistic, some people with autism are very intelligent and do well on IQ tests, but it could mean an increased incidence of lower functioning autism.
I do wonder at the mechanisms of the autism disorder. If it's a matter of the brain tissue being affected somewhere, the brain is a complicated organ, and there are a number of things that could contribute to the condition, and autism does have a broad range of symptoms that aren't always easy to narrow down to a specific cause in all cases. Your vip proteins, for example, perhaps indicate an issue with cor
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Quote:Chloride in the diet mostly comes from salt, not chlorination.
I imagine chloride DOES bind as well, though there's less study on that because chloridation of water is not such a hot button issue.
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Yeah. Though municipal water is chlorinated (thanks for the spelling correction) in order to sterilize it.
I think in regards to chloride we can both at least agree that chlorinated solvents are a concern, and that when we consume salt, biologically speaking it's more the metals we need than it is the halogens. We might require salts, with halogens, but that's not to say the halogens are good for us.
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My dad and I both love salt, we crave it.
The only thing I know about negative ions is that they are what I experience when I go streaming and play in waterfalls and they feel really good, especially if the water is extra cold so I have to breathe in more deeply, thus injesting the negative ions. Its like this amazing natural high, who needs street drugs when you've got Aniana gorge falls.
"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya
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Some people (my hubby, his brother and at least one of his nieces) are salt-sweaters... they sweat way more salt than average. And they crave it too. Maybe you're a salt-sweater?
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That sounds like some sort of zombie or alien creature from one of those low-grade horror film. :)))
I don't know if I am, maybe, that would explain why I love salt so much.
"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya
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