The Poor, the Rich and the Ugly
POSTED BY: dreamtrove
UPDATED: Thursday, April 21, 2011 16:06
VIEWED: 1825
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I've been avoiding this because these things are whirlpools of sinking partisanship, but I have to weigh in here: (ETA: I think this post deserves its own thread, the discussion of who we mean when we say things like "poor" "rich" "welfare recipient" "taxpayer" etc.)
I think there's a popular misconception:
The financial trainwrecks of this country are not "poor" by classical definition. They are people with poorly managed finances. I have several times in my life found myself dealing with people who live in trailer parks, have six non-working cars in the yard, and rentacenter is coming to the door to collect their furniture. These guys are not always on welfare, very often they work. Sometimes decent jobs, 30-40k.
A lot of people I've known on welfare are drug addicts who are busy supporting their dealer. Some of them are rich kids, but they've gotten themselves classified as "mentally disabled" so they can go on and support their habit and their dealer.
Some recipients are the actual disabled, or the elderly. A lot are people who worked their whole lives to save money in a trust fund that some idiot banker gambled away on mortgage derivatives.
Some are people who, despite being disabled, and eligible for disability, chose to work their whole lives, and are suddenly unable to do so.
Some are millionaires living in grand estates, but are eligible for a handout, and so take it. Some are eligible for two or three, and take them.
And yes, some are system gamers who are determined to cheat the economy. These guys are usually neither lounging around or kicking back, and they're not hardworking contributors to society, they tend to be taking the time off from online poker. That's because this sort of manipulation takes a certain kind of mind, an organized mind capable of understanding and manipulating complex rules systems, a kind of mind that the trailer bound couch potato doesn't have.
I think the left thinks its helping the poor, and I think the right thinks its pushing society to work harder, but I don't think these are the important things going on.
A small % of welfare is going to help people who need it, who are or aren't poor. A large % is going to people who don't need it and are rich, and a moderate % is going to people who are manipulating it to support some underworld industry. It's overall a terrible way to run a railroad.
The better way, IMHO, to analyze this is to say "what is the need (of the poor, disabled, etc)" and then "what is the real world cost of that need" and then "Who is paying for it?" and "how can we cover that need without being a burden to the population?"
Finally, let me start off with this: "Whose responsibility is it?"
If we're to take a serious look at this, some of these situations are hard luck cases, and the answer is that the responsibility belongs to us, collectively, not some segment of us, but all of us who want that to be there for us if we are suddenly unable to work for whatever reason.
It's not the responsibility of the rich, or of the poor, or the govt, it's the responsibility of society as a whole, as long as we're not willing to starve if we have an accident or hit a bad job market.
That said, what isn't our responsibility?
Feeding someone's drug habit
Helping buy new gold-plated forks because the gold plate is wearing off the old ones
Hiring prostitutes
Taking a trip to the Bahamas
Taking a trip to the Casino
Investing in high risk Derivatives
Quitting your job
Throwing parties for your boys
Buying a flatscreen TV
These are all things that have been done with welfare money by people I know.
You can think what you want about these activities, from a libertarian perspective, however:
What they aren't is our responsibility, as a society.
If we accept the concept of social safety net, we do so because we want it their for us and ours, and we do so to stop people from descending into crime, etc. or starving, etc. I think even Auraptor would agree that these are things we don't want.
I also wanted
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I'm kind of typing on the run, but it seems to me that welfare does not support anyones drug habit, unless your welfare system is heaps more generous than ours and your drugs are very cheap. Most druggies I know, either work for their habit, or pay for it by illegal activity or prostitution.
There are a lot of people who receive welfare of some kind in this country who are not poor and not deserving in any way. That was largely a policy of one of our most conservative governments, and now of course, this has all become a voter insistent entitlement.
But there are also a lot of people who need a bit of support, particularly those with illness, mental or disability. Doesn't mean they can't work, but they may not be able to work much or all the time. And the elderly. I hate the thought of older people living in squalor.
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Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
...If we're to take a serious look at this, some of these situations are hard luck cases, and the answer is that the responsibility belongs to us, collectively, not some segment of us, but all of us who want that to be there for us if we are suddenly unable to work for whatever reason.
It's not the responsibility of the rich, or of the poor, or the govt, it's the responsibility of society as a whole, as long as we're not willing to starve if we have an accident or hit a bad job market...
Prior to FDR the responsibility was on you or your family. It had always been the only way things were done. However, the politics of the time made the established order in Washington just about shit their britches. Communists had seized power in Russia, were fighting a civil war in China and socialists were gaining power in Germany. In fact, an army had marched on Washington only a few years earlier and the army had to be called out to destroy their squatter camp and disperse them. If the bonus army had gotten violent the white house would have burned again.
Redistribution of wealth through social security and welfare was the only way to save their collective bacon. So, they did it.
Where in the Constitution does it authorize the government to give money to people? It doesn't. It shouldn't. Big brother is not here to protect you from a rainy day. Bad luck happens and it is through your wit, guile and prior preparation that you survive it.
The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.
...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36
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I think this a good post and you have worded it in a very reasonable and logical way, sounds very neutral to me which is good, the way you describe it. I will look forward to seeing what people can come up with, I agree that we need to give it another look, decide how to procede as a society to make sure people get what they need in a logical way. I'm not cool with that credit card idea though, where the government sees everything we buy and says "I'm sorry, you didn't have to go out to dinner with your sister this month, I'm deducting your pay", that's just not kosure".
"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya
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Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
I think this a good post and you have worded it in a very reasonable and logical way, sounds very neutral to me which is good, the way you describe it. I will look forward to seeing what people can come up with, I agree that we need to give it another look, decide how to procede as a society to make sure people get what they need in a logical way. I'm not cool with that credit card idea though, where the government sees everything we buy and says "I'm sorry, you didn't have to go out to dinner with your sister this month, I'm deducting your pay", that's just not kosure".
"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya
Did I miss the "credit card" idea? Please explain. More.
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Magons: he said that he has known people who DID use welfare money to buy drugs. He used to live in Chicago in the inner city, if that helps you reconcile his observation.
He also distinctly mentioned the elderly and disabled as people in need of support.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
I'm kind of typing on the run, but it seems to me that welfare does not support anyones drug habit, unless your welfare system is heaps more generous than ours and your drugs are very cheap. Most druggies I know, either work for their habit, or pay for it by illegal activity or prostitution.
There are a lot of people who receive welfare of some kind in this country who are not poor and not deserving in any way. That was largely a policy of one of our most conservative governments, and now of course, this has all become a voter insistent entitlement.
But there are also a lot of people who need a bit of support, particularly those with illness, mental or disability. Doesn't mean they can't work, but they may not be able to work much or all the time. And the elderly. I hate the thought of older people living in squalor.
Magon,
It's the number one thing that welfare recipients I've known personally have done with their check. The reason isn't the people, it's the organization of the drug dealers. The checks all come on the first of the month. So, the dealers come around and give out free samples, just before people get their checks. Then, with judgment impaired, they collect the mail, and the druggie signs over his check.
Drug dealers have a special operation. It involves getting people stoked up on drugs, and then letting them crash, as the drugs leave the system. At that point, they can be taken into a psych ward and classified as schizo, and then put on disability. They like to collect about half a dozen of these guys and rent them a house together.
That said...
There are a lot of people who need it. But by dollar amounts I calculate it to be about 10% of the budget. I know that if we just cut the budget by 90%, that will not fix the problem. Organized drug gangs and the wealthy will still be getting some, but the poor will be out on the street.
The system could use some reform. Suggestions?
ETA: Byte, it's not just Chicago. This is common in NY as well.
That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:
Where in the Constitution does it authorize the government to give money to people? It doesn't. It shouldn't. Big brother is not here to protect you from a rainy day. Bad luck happens and it is through your wit, guile and prior preparation that you survive it.
Depends on the nature of your bad luck. Anyway, decent analysis of the problem. Any suggestions?
That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.
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Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
I think this a good post and you have worded it in a very reasonable and logical way, sounds very neutral to me which is good, the way you describe it. I will look forward to seeing what people can come up with, I agree that we need to give it another look, decide how to procede as a society to make sure people get what they need in a logical way. I'm not cool with that credit card idea though, where the government sees everything we buy and says "I'm sorry, you didn't have to go out to dinner with your sister this month, I'm deducting your pay", that's just not kosure".
"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya
Riona,
Thanks. I understand your concern about surveillance society.
I don't think the EBT system goes that far. It's more like food stamps, there's an approved list. If you took the EBT card to the strip club, it probably wouldn't work because the state probably wouldn't approve them as a vendor of essential services.
The computer is probably going to flag you if you buy 1000 lotto tickets or a large number of anything with a fair street price.
Criminal activities are generally conducted with cash, which is less easily traced. It doesn't have to be impossible, it's just difficult enough that they would use some other income sources. IIRC there's a limited level of cash withdrawal allowed, but this is reasonable, as approved sources won't cover everything. It just helps prevent widespread abuse, of the sort I just explained to Magon.
That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Whoracle:Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
I think this a good post and you have worded it in a very reasonable and logical way, sounds very neutral to me which is good, the way you describe it. I will look forward to seeing what people can come up with, I agree that we need to give it another look, decide how to procede as a society to make sure people get what they need in a logical way. I'm not cool with that credit card idea though, where the government sees everything we buy and says "I'm sorry, you didn't have to go out to dinner with your sister this month, I'm deducting your pay", that's just not kosure".
"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya
Did I miss the "credit card" idea? Please explain. More.
I think she was referring to EBT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Benefit_Transfer
That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.
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