Japan - It's worse than you know....
POSTED BY: AURaptor
UPDATED: Monday, December 16, 2024 06:17
VIEWED: 6776
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So, I was thinking about the whole idea of intl. plans ... I think there's a flaw in it.
Here's the specific example: One of the problems at Fukushima Daichi is that about 20 years worth of spent fuel is being stored on site - not in the spent fuel pools next to the reactor cores but in tanks. That's roughly half the spent fuel generated over the lifetime of the facility. This is an example of poor operation. No matter how good your plans, your operation has to be good as well.
The problem with people running nuclear power plants in the general sense is the interaction of three factors.
One is that nuclear power is implacable. You have to be perfect in your plan and operation because every time you are not, you risk catastrophe.
The second is that while our technology requires flawlessly meeting long-term demands, our brains are focused on the short-term rewards. So we tend to do what is more rewarding or easier - even when we KNOW otherwise.
The third is that the regulators tend to come to resemble the regulated sector, and regulation gets slack.
I'm not sure that putting human minds in control of such demanding technology is a good match of job and tools.
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Riona, Yuriko actually hunted me down through multiple levels of obfuscation after reading some of my editorials and realizing there was a single person behind them, apparently the "theme" of them resonated with what they believe - and the girl is scary smart and a damn slick investigator on top of knowing a fistful of languages, even if she is a mite on the creepy-crazy side.
She actually kind of started out blackmailing me to talk to her, but it didn't take long before she understood enough about the situation to jump on board as an ally - her folks are okay but slightly estranged from her, although she was the apple of her uncles eye and he doted on her (spoiled her rotten, more like!), but unfortunately his workplace was smack dab in the impact zone and the entire building was more or less reduced to powder, alas - he did live a pretty full life, and being a corporate loyalist one could say he did the equivalent of dying with his boots on, but such losses are never easy to take.
She is as far as I understand it the one in charge of their little temple/shrine/whatever, and Maltquake is next in line, although they're not actually related - I suppose the rest of them would be considered "Miko", I think, I don't know all that much about Shinto cause there's language/culture translation issues, not to mention my lack of patience with religious issues as a whole to begin with, but for reasons which seem mostly to revolve around them having the only non-flooded building, they're stuck with trying to sort out, salvage and rebuild, if this is even possible cause that area might be flooded permanently, I don't know.
There's also that she has a VERY forceful personality (especially for a female in that society, due in part to her uncles endless indulgence of her whims), and isn't one to sit by the wayside in a crisis, whereas most of the folk from that area are so flaming conservative it takes them forever to make any kind of a decision, so she probably just ran them over with a plan and handed it off as a fait accompli - they won't be the first nor the last folk she's done THAT to.
I know in the face of such an epic disaster and crisis, their situation is by comparison so minor a thing it doesn't even register - but knowing them personally, even at a distance, makes it more real, more heart wrenching, than it'd otherwise be, cause you care about them specifically.
On the bright side, I rather doubt any of those people will ever be so dismissive of them due to age and gender in the future, saving peoples ass tends to have that effect, yes ?
Also: Regarding regulation of reactors and whatnot - all you really need is one hardass, ruthless bastard who cares about nothing else but the quality of the personnel and safe operations, and be damned to anything else.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyman_G._Rickover
Rickover didn't care very much for the *idea* of nuclear powered subs, but we were GOING to have them, regardless of how he felt about it, and so he did everything in his power, and then some, in order to ensure their safety.
If THAT man, or someone like him, was in charge of a nuclear power plant, I would never worry for it.
-Frem
I do not serve the Blind God.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
HW, I saw what Kiki saw: It was a video originally in Japanese w/ english translation in which a TEPCO official... struggling not to cry while on-air... describes how the radioactive water collecting in Unit No 5 is threatening the entire site's emergency power.
Like all things TEPCO, the announcement was incomplete and unclear. I don't think Nos 5-6 nuclear reactors have been started back up to supply site power, but it's possible they have emergency diesel generators in the basements which are threatened by the water.
I can't find the link again... part of the problem with the news being fragmentary, parsed out in small bits to various newsgroups- when at all. (This particular link was to a Chinese website, I believe). If I find it again, I will post it, and maybe you can read the tea leaves better.
No problems. I saw on the IAEA's website that they are reporting that backup generators in units 5&6 are supplying power to those units to keep the pumps for the spent fuel pools working. Temps are 57 C in those pools.
Grid power is restored, but not operable in units 1-4 yet. Temps are averaging 97 C in units 1-3 and the fuel pools of 1-4. That's close to boiling.
CNN reported that they are estimating 6-9 months before the crisis is resolved. After reading the IAEA's site status updates and seeing how things went from bad to worse on an almost daily basis, I'm not going to hold them to that timetable.
The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.
...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36
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That makes more sense. I had read a press release (now far buried in the i-net) where the infamous 'they' mentioned that if reactors 5 and 6 were out of commission, they would not be able to pump water. Since they said reactor, I assumed they meant reactor. Apparently they meant generator.
***** Thank you for clearing that up. *****
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Quote:
Changes to Fukushima Daiichi Plant Status
The IAEA receives information updates from a variety of official Japanese sources, through the national competent authorities: the Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency (NISA) and the Ministry of Education, Culture, Sports, Science and Technology (MEXT).
Based on the information received by 18th April 2011 02:00 UTC the following update related to the reactor units at the Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Plant (NPP), and related environmental conditions, is provided.
As a countermeasure against a possible tsunami, the distribution boards for the pumps injecting water to the reactor pressure vessels of Units 1, 2 and 3 were transferred to higher ground on 15th April. In order to minimize the liberation of radioactive material into the ocean, two sandbags filled with Zeolite were placed between the Inlet Screen Pump Room of Unit 1 and Unit 2. Further, five sandbags filled with Zeolite were placed between the Inlet Screen Pump Room of Unit 2 and Unit 3 on 17th April. The Zeolite material is designed to capture specific radioactive elements. It is intended to sample and analyze the Zeolite material periodically to determine the effectiveness of this procedure.
The removal of debris (amount equivalent to 8 containers) using remote-control heavy machinery continued on 16th April.
Nitrogen gas is being injected into the Unit 1 containment vessel to reduce the possibility of hydrogen combustion within the containment vessel. The pressure in this containment vessel has stabilised. The pressure in the RPV is stable.
In Unit 1, fresh water is being continuously injected into the RPV through the feed-water line at an indicated flow rate of 6 m3/h using a temporary electric pump with off-site power. In Units 2 and 3, fresh water is being continuously injected through the fire extinguisher lines at an indicated rate of 7 m3/h using temporary electric pumps with off-site power.
RPV temperatures remain above cold shutdown conditions in all Units, (typically less than 95°C). In Unit 1 the temperature at the feed water nozzle of the RPV is 180°C and at the bottom of the RPV is 117°C. In Unit 2, the temperature at the feed water nozzle of the RPV is 141°C. In Unit 3 the temperature at the feed water nozzle of the RPV is 91°C and at the bottom of the RPV is 122°C.
In accordance with the report of the Nuclear Emergency Response HQs (Prime Minister's Office) from 15th April, thermography temperatures of the Containment Vessel and Spent Fuel Pool in Unit 1 were 33 °C and 36°C respectively. In Unit 3 the temperatures were 68°C and 59°C at the same positions. Also on the 15th April, thermography temperature of the Unit 2 reactor building roof was 31°C
As of 16th April, no white smoke was seen to be coming from Unit 1 although white smoke was still observed coming from Units 2 and 3. As of 16th April white smoke was also visible in Unit 4.
Fresh water injection (around 45 tonnes) to the spent fuel pool was carried out via the spent fuel pool cooling line of Unit 2 and completed by 16th April. Due to the occurrence of an earthquake on 16th April, the motor-driven pump was stopped. The spent fuel pool was confirmed to be filled with water.
In accordance with NISA Release 94, TEPCO took water samples from the spent fuel pool of Unit 4 on 12th April, in order to examine the conditions. The sample was taken by using the arm of the concrete pump vehicle. At the same time, the temperature of water in the spent fuel pool of Unit 4 was measured with a thermistor attached to the arm of the concrete pump vehicle. The activities for I-131, Cs-134 and Cs-137 were 220 Bq/cm3, 88 Bq/cm3 and 93 Bq/cm3 respectively.
There has been no change in the status in Units 5 and 6.
The power supply to the Common Spent Fuel Pool was temporarily interrupted due to a short-circuit on 17th April.
IAEA website, updated daily.
http://www.iaea.org/newscenter/news/tsunamiupdate01.html
The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.
...and he that has
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What i cant seem to get over, is this. They're dealing with NUCLEAR power/energy. In Japan. If anyone should know the risks, and danagers, it's the Japanese. I mean, they did have two bombs dropped on there heads, and they STILL have not fully recovered from that, and its been over 50 years.
"Mom, he has her chip. He has her."
John Connor,"Born To Run", TSCC EP 2x22
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Depends on what you mean. If you mean an increased incidence of leukemia then yes, but Hiroshima and Nagasaki as cities are doing okay and their areas are fairly liveable radiation wise. Atomic bomb radiation is a generally short lived species compared to other types.
I can't say I'm a fan of nuclear power, but the issue here was mostly the earthquake and the tsunami. ...Some issue as well on the part of the Japanese government and TEPCO. The reactors in question were old, and from reports appear to have had safety cuts and poor maintenance.
I guess I just find it a little unfair to ask "why haven't the Japanese learned better" when it was really only maybe 100 or so people in any position of say over the matter. I mostly feel sorry for the Japanese, they're good people. No one would've deserved something like this.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
HW, I saw what Kiki saw: It was a video originally in Japanese w/ english translation in which a TEPCO official... struggling not to cry while on-air...
A suggestion... that in addition to the realization that this is a colossal, far reaching disaster, what you're also seeing is a cultural display of having to effectively admit some culpability for this ? It's ingrained in some that to fail, in such a public manner and for something on such an enormous scale, reflects poorly on the company, the plant, and all who work there, to the very last man.
We might see this sort of emotion from a front line worker, those doing the heavy lifting, but not from a company suit.
Think Tony Hayward, of BP, and that's probably more of what you'd expect from many Western execs.
" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Depends on what you mean. If you mean an increased incidence of leukemia then yes, but Hiroshima and Nagasaki as cities are doing okay and their areas are fairly liveable radiation wise. Atomic bomb radiation is a generally short lived species compared to other types.
I can't say I'm a fan of nuclear power, but the issue here was mostly the earthquake and the tsunami. ...Some issue as well on the part of the Japanese government and TEPCO. The reactors in question were old, and from reports appear to have had safety cuts and poor maintenance.
I guess I just find it a little unfair to ask "why haven't the Japanese learned better" when it was really only maybe 100 or so people in any position of say over the matter. I mostly feel sorry for the Japanese, they're good people. No one would've deserved something like this.
I agree on that, im just saying the people in CHARGE of ensuring protocals are met, workers and civilians are safe, and that the most destructive, powerful, and while still very, VERY deadly, beautiful, thing that we've ever discovered, and still know very little about, is keept protected, didn't do there job. Because THEY chose to put a nuclear facility, on an ACTIVE fault line. That to me, is the biggest mistake.
"Mom, he has her chip. He has her."
John Connor,"Born To Run", TSCC EP 2x22
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Quote:
Originally posted by jameron4eva:
I agree on that, im just saying the people in CHARGE of ensuring protocals are met, workers and civilians are safe, and that the most destructive, powerful, and while still very, VERY deadly, beautiful, thing that we've ever discovered, and still know very little about, is keept protected, didn't do there job. Because THEY chose to put a nuclear facility, on an ACTIVE fault line. That to me, is the biggest mistake.
Which would pretty much preclude putting a nuclear reactor anywhere in Japan. The reactors survived the earthquake with minimal damage. They scrammed as designed and it wasn't until the tsunami took out their generators (Why they were in the basement is another story. Next time, generators and diesel fuel on the roof, spent fuel pool in the basement. Not the other way around)
Another question is why they were not using Thorium reactors. When a Thorium reactor loses power it shuts down. Thorium is the most prevalent nuclear fuel on the planet. It also produces less nuclear waste than Uranium reactors and it doesn't have to be shut down to refuel it.
The conventional Uranium reactors are an outgrowth of nuclear weapon technology. At one time we wanted lots of reactors that could be used to breed nuclear fuel for bombs and that is why the Uranium reactor is the most prevalent fuel on the planet.
The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.
...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36
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