Ghostbusters: Scifi or Fantasy?
POSTED BY: DMI
UPDATED: Thursday, March 10, 2011 21:14
VIEWED: 14126
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Well, it's suggested that some of the ghosts, such as the library lady, originally were people before they died. Saying the existing ghosts were all related to the inter-dimensional being in the first film calls into question the origin of the ghosts in the second movie, but I will put aside the second movie in favour of the first for now.
But also, it's suggested that gathering paranormal forces for a large-scale event attracts more minor paranormal activity as well. Paranormal activity in enough concentration can apparently manifest itself as a fuel for further paranormal activity.
Such as happens with the containment exploding and releasing previously captured ghosts in the first movie, and more directly manifesting as a river of psychoactive slime later used to power a walking statue of liberty in the second film.
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Hello,
This is the plot to Star Trek XVI, The Dimensional Door:
Picard, Worf, and Data discover that extra-dimensional alien beings are invading Earth. These beings are able to enter our world from another dimension via a growing Portal.
It turns out that a powerful entity from an alternate dimension, with power similar to that of Trelane, is creating this portal.
Picard, Worf, and Data have to figure out a way to stop him, while also fighting the extra-dimensional beings who penetrate through the weakening trans-dimensional barrier.
Things get really hairy when Lieutenant Barclay and Diana Troi are possessed by the extra-dimensional beings, and used to facilitate the full opening of the trans-dimensional portal.
Fortunately, Picard, Worf, and Data are able to build special triolic energy weapons which can weaken the extra-dimensional beings, and enable them to be trapped in a special containment unit in Starfleet Headquarters.
The Federation does not believe in the extra-dimensional threat, however. They order Picard, Worf, and Data to dismantle their unauthorized containment unit. When the trio refuse, a high-ranking Admiral deactivates the unit himself, freeing countless extra-dimensional beings who have already been apprehended.
Only now realizing the mistake, the Federation President finally authorizes Picard's mission.
Picard, Worf, and Data confront the extra-dimensional bigwig as he transitions through the portal. At first, they are dismayed when the extra-dimensional Trelane-type entity shows immense power, able to use telepathy to discover their worst fears and manifest them using matter-energy conversion technology. However, our Starfleet heroes prevail when they hatch a daring plan to combine the power from their triolic energy weapons to defeat the bigwig and seal the portal once and for all. With the connection to their home dimension severed, Lieutenant Barclay and Troi's dimensional invaders fall away, freeing them from alien control.
The Federation rejoices.
The End.
If this all sounds like a stretch, most of the components to this story are freely available in canon Trek plots, a show that is typically categorized as Sci-Fi.
I want to stress that I don't consider any stories to be 'technology driven', an assertion made about my position that I consider false. I'm sorry if I gave that impression. I repeatedly used the word 'trappings.' I think I can retell any Fantasy story in a Sci Fi format. Sci-Fi is just a color on the palette that some people like better because it makes a superficial connection to aspects of the verifiable world. If there is a sci-fi story that 'falls apart' without the presence of technology, then I haven't read it yet.
If the writer chooses science as his conveyance to the fictional realm, it's a Sci-Fi story. If he chooses magic or similar elements, it's Fantasy, as far as I'm concerned. Because Ghostbusters' writers chose to analyze and confront their spiritual antagonists from the position of Science, I consider it Sci-Fi. If they had stuck to wands and incantations, I'd consider it Fantasy. Trelane and Gozer and Sauron are all just different color M&M's to me.
--Anthony
Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.
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Byte
No point in arguing, here, but I will side with writers here, because the art of writing is largely dependent on the ability to abstract from the text what the story is about, which gives you a good heading on its future optimal direction. That's why they bothered to make rules to determine what genre your story is, or who your story is about.
Ergo, following admittedly dogmatic rules, Firefly is a show about Simon and River told by Mal and possibly Kaylee. Everyone else is in a rather supportive role. People may not like or agree with that analysis, but it's a writers perspective, and one that can be concluded using common writers tools.
I believe that the point of using these is that the art of storytelling is a skill, and not a matter of opinion. I can break the rules once I know and understand them, but it is important to do that first, and then, when I do break them, to be very sure that I am breaking them intentionally and for a good reason.
The result of this is hopefully good writing.
We were just talking about Pirates of the Caribbean, a story about Elizabeth Swan, told by either Will Turner or more likely Jack Sparrow. The writers failed to understand this, just as they failed to understand contrast, which is why the first story, lifted from On Stranger Tides and Monkey Island worked rather better than subsequent attempts.
I'm not saying that the analysis I posted is correct or more valid than opinion, but that it is the result of a critical analysis, rather than just being pure opinion, and that such critical analysis has a point, which is storytelling.
That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.
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Oh man, don't even get me started on Pirates of the Carribean. While the last movie was okay and the ending was a tear-jerker, speaking entirely from a story-writing perspective Elizabeth really SHOULD have turned out to be the reincarnation of Calypso.
Anyway.
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I don't think so. I toyed with that idea, but the story was too far off course by this point. The last minute swap of Jack and Will didn't make sense. There are individual scenes in the sequels that work, but overall, there's too much slapstick and not enough cinematic story construction.
Elizabeth's initial story arc is becoming a pirate. If the story continues, she's going to end up a totally depraved scoundrel who raids English ports, but in so doing, it should be to protect the world from Beckett.
The only character in the later movies who undergoes decent development is Norrington, but it's not as interesting as it good have been, it falls into some stock story changes. Everyone complained that Jack Sparrow decays, because less light/dark and more light, but Will and Elizabeth decay pretty badly, they become in parts passive, less proactive. The kinky scene where Elizabeth kisses Jack while chaining him to the ship is one of the developments that works, including everything that leads up to that.
But it's completely inconsistent. Where Jack rows away and then comes back, you're thinking "Is he running away?" that would be out of character, if only a little, it's enough to be jarring. But it falls apart when the Kraken doesn't chase him. It stays after the ship. Then you're left with "maybe he's running away to save everyone else, and then sees it doesn't work" which works, but I'm not sure this is something the writers thought of. If this is the angle, then it's consistent with his showdown with the Kraken, but it's not consistent with the chaining to the ship scene. If you take the simpler explanation of his running away as "Suddenly he's a coward, and then suddenly he feels bad about it, changes his mind and then turns around" then that's just really contrived to boost unnecessary suspense at the cost of the character, but additionally, you have the problem that it reverses the consistency: Now it's consistent with the chain scene, but not with his showdown. It's lose-lose for the writers, because they've worked in two competing views of what's going on. Either the Kraken is after Jack, or it's after the Pearl, and the writers can't make up their minds.
Okay, I'll grant that Jack may have thought "If I can get to land, all this will end, I'll be safe" which is a slightly less heroic version, but then followed by "Uh Oh, this isn't working" which makes you say "Why isn't it working?"
Writing is tricky. You have to convince the reader of the mechanisms that the story hinges on, whether the characters figure it out or not, and to do that, you have to know yourself what those hinges are. This is the Kraken. It was sent to recover a) Jack, b) the Pearl, c) the Heart. Make up your minds. As it is, I'm left thinking "This is the Kraken, it's not very bright." But if that's the case, our characters should be able to outsmart it.
That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.
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The last minute swap of Jack and Will didn't make sense.
Yeah. That was also a problem. They didn't stay true to Jack's character, who is more likely to have tried to take the hit for Will, not as a heroic sacrifice, but because he'd shown he actually wanted to take over the Flying Dutchman. It would have been the culmination of a number of gambits Jack was running to get the upper hand on everyone.
If they wanted the drama at the end with Will, which they'd been foreshadowing in the second movie, with obvious comparisons in the story of Davy Jones and Calypso, then they should have damn well followed through on the allegory they set up. But if they weren't going to have Elizabeth become the Pirate "King," and then the Pirate's Sea Goddess (thus freeing Calypso to act against Beckett, and also a nice gambit on the pirate's part to get rid of a leader), then they should have had Jack become the captain of the Flying Dutchman. As it is, they copped out on something between the two options, which while it gives a nice sentimental ending, ultimately didn't work in terms of the story.
Of course, the reason Disney didn't do this was because Jack was a breakout character, and this was a chance to side-line or write out Will and Elizabeth in future pirate movies.
Either way, yes, the story got messed up somewhere. Not even counting when they brought back Barbossa without explaining it, and then for some reason voodoo Calypso couldn't do the same for Jack? Just weird. (I know WHY, they had to have a big ham actor with Will while they went looking for Jack or the audience would've become bored, but there was no reason in the story for this)
I don't remember the showdown with the Kraken very well, but I do remember thinking that Elizabeth chaining Jack up was the only thing that worked in that scene.
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I'd say fantasy. There is little to no real science in the film, even if the characters are called scientists.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Actually... The film has a number of shout-outs to actual real world paranormal phenomena that have been documented, but that perhaps depends on whether you consider the field of paranormal research a scientific field. I wouldn't be surprised if none of us here did.
In any case, none of those phenomena actually apply to or shape the story.
Here's an alternative: Why don't we call it speculative fiction and call it good?
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Of course, the reason Disney didn't do this was because Jack was a breakout character, and this was a chance to side-line or write out Will and Elizabeth in future pirate movies.
Also Keira and Orlando had said they weren't interested in another film, and Depp was. This was in part because as bad as they butchered Jack, that was nothing compared to what they did to Will and Elizabeth.
If Elizabeth Swan had stayed true to the character from the first movie, they probably could have had her for half a dozen of these. In fact, the first one is a great film, and the dynamic between the three characters works. I haven't read the book, but those who have say that's why, it was largely lifted from the book.
That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.
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Yeah, the second and third films are a mess, and the third film in particular starts to get too long and suffer from arc fatigue. Too many running gags.
On the other hand, most of the complaints I have with the second and third film are story related- the plot structure is weak at best. I have no particular complaints about the character interactions though (convoluted, but makes the double-crossing more fun) or the character arcs, except for Elizabeth's. The Pirate King thing, while cool, also messed up the way her character fit in with the other two main characters, and made it inexplicable when she gave up the lifestyle and reverted to original type.
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