What is science?

POSTED BY: canttakesky
UPDATED: Sunday, August 30, 2026 21:01
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CANTTAKESKY

Thursday, February 10, 2011 10:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
.... but that's as much as saying that the concept closed system doesn't exist.

Brilliant. Much better than bickering about semantics.

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Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.

DREAMTROVE

Thursday, February 10, 2011 11:27 PM

Thanks

CANTTAKESKY

Friday, February 11, 2011 12:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by CITIZEN:
The definition you keep pushing for is wrong,

Oh no, I'm not pushing for it.

Let me spell out the points I AM pushing.

1. If you define X as an impossibility, X is going to be impossible, by definition. This is simply confirmation bias at its worst (or best?).

2. To me, it is more *useful* to consider a broader definition, then explore the various circumstances under which X can or cannot work. This is the spirit of science, testing and experimentation.

3. Science is not knowledge that X is impossible. It is a method by which we construct a predictive model. No models are perfect, therefore the best any model can do is say that X is highly improbable under the conditions of the model. Science IS uncertainty.

4. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics is a pretty damn good model, but it is NOT religious dogma or the inspired Holy Scriptures of the God of Omni-Science. It has limitations and assumptions; it is subject to correction, change, improvement.

5. What I am pushing for is a different attitude about what science is: exploratory, uncertain, carefully qualifying assumptions, open to correction.

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Hell, the only reason the Government hates crime at all is that it despises competition. - Frem

CITIZEN

Friday, February 11, 2011 2:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
4. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics is a pretty damn good model, but it is NOT religious dogma or the inspired Holy Scriptures of the God of Omni-Science. It has limitations and assumptions; it is subject to correction, change, improvement.

Which limitations and assumptions are you talking about preceisly?

The laws of Thermodynamics aren't actually a model. A model is a theory, the laws of Thermodynamics are scientific laws, not theories, which means they are descriptions of observed effects. The only way to overturn a scientific law is to prove that the experimental evidence is wrong, that the observed effect didn't, in fact happen. Theories get overturned all the time, because they're describing why a particular observed effect took place, so if a new theory better describes the observation, it's adopted. Since laws state "this happened" in order to overturn them you have to prove the evidence collected was wrong.

Since Thermodynamics are a fundemental set of laws to physics, you have to prove that pretty much every experiment ever done by every physicist was wrong, that physics doesn't in fact exist and then prove that the scientific method doesn't work. Which kinda Sure all that is "possible", in the vague way that it's also "possible" that I'm going to Quantum Tunnel into a new state, that just happens to be a limbo dancing super-intelligent shade of the colour blue called Rasputin-Charmichael the third. I'll keep you posted on that one, hasn't happened yet though.

As for "perpetual motion", regardless of which definition you choose to use, the word is "perpetual", never ending. If it's doing useful work it'll need a "perpetual", i.e. never ending, power source. Whether internal or external, whether closed or open or otherwise, if you can come up one example of a concievably infinte power source, I'll take a rusty nail and carve "fancy that" into the side of my cock, before telling Stephen Hawking he's wasted his life and that Physics is all bullshit. Deal?

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
5. What I am pushing for is a different attitude about what science is: exploratory, uncertain, carefully qualifying assumptions, open to correction.

And nothing I've said actually contradicts that. In fact that's pretty much exactly what I've been saying all along, others rephrasing of my words not withstanding. What gets old though CTS, and hopefully you won't take this the wrong way, but while you clearly understand the scientific method really well, you seem to instantly distrust anything mainstream to the point of "pathelogical scepticism", while accepting anything from the fringes with almost pathelogical open-mindedness. For instance in this thread you asked me to back up the most well supported set of physical laws we have, while congratualating Dreamtrove on his statments, and ignoring completely his babbling about vaccuum energy, and impossible nanotech magic machines.

For the record, it's easier to construct a "closed system" than it is to construct a "perpetual motion" machine.

KIRKULES

Saturday, February 12, 2011 12:59 AM

Yes, I have been drinking excessively, but that doesn't change the fact that Citizen is 100% correct. I can't tell you how painful that is for me to admit. The laws of Physics are the pillars of all science, those that call them into question without evidence are claiming knowledge superior to Newton and Einstein without showing any evidence. Those that believe such drivel are victims of the lure of the pseudo-science idiots that pollute our society today.

DREAMTROVE

Saturday, February 12, 2011 1:31 AM

CTS

You won. Why are you still arguing?

BYTEMITE

Saturday, February 12, 2011 1:52 AM

Quantum Mechanics showed Einstein up. There are some who think Newton's Laws and his derived gravitation force between two objects are a smidgen off and need correction, and they're entirely respectable physicists who think that Dark Matter and Dark Energy are weak explanations for observed discrepancies in measurements - weak explanations that no one has yet been able to provide evidence for.

Even laws are not immune to our ever-improving understanding of the universe. Laws are meant to be broken.

CANTTAKESKY

Saturday, February 12, 2011 4:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by CITIZEN:
Which limitations and assumptions are you talking about preceisly?

From Wikipedia:

Quote:
All laws of thermodynamics but the first are statistical and simply describe the tendencies of macroscopic systems. They are only strictly valid in the thermodynamic limit when a system has many states. For microscopic systems with few particles the assumptions of thermodynamics become meaningless.

The same concepts from a different source: http://ecee.colorado.edu/~bart/book/book/chapter1/ch1_4.htm

Quote:
Thermodynamics describes the behavior of systems containing a large number of particles. These systems are characterized by their temperature, volume, number and the type of particles. The state of the system is then further described by its total energy and a variety of other parameters including the entropy. Such a characterization of a system is much simpler than trying to keep track of each particle individually, hence its usefulness. In addition, such a characterization is general in nature so that it can be applied to mechanical, electrical and chemical systems.

The term thermodynamics is somewhat misleading as one deals primarily with systems in thermal equilibrium. These systems have constant temperature, volume and number of particles and their macroscopic parameters do not change over time, so that the dynamics are limited to the microscopic dynamics of the particles within the system.

From http://chemed.chem.purdue.edu/genchem/topicreview/bp/ch21/chemical.php

Quote:
One of the basic assumptions of thermodynamics is the idea that we can arbitrarily divide the universe into a system and its surroundings.

And so on and so forth.

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Hell, the only reason the Government hates crime at all is that it despises competition. - Frem

CANTTAKESKY

Saturday, February 12, 2011 4:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
The laws of Physics are the pillars of all science, those that call them into question without evidence are claiming knowledge superior to Newton and Einstein without showing any evidence.

I am not calling them into question. I fully accept the laws of physics.

I am saying, EVERYTHING in science, including laws, axioms, and postulates, have an inherent uncertainty that makes it possible for self-correction. In other words, nothing in science is absolute.

In contrast, religion is all about dogmas being absolute and certain.

In a thread called "What is science?" I am attempting to make a distinction between "science" used with absolute certainty like a religion and science used as a self-questioning method of exploration.

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Hell, the only reason the Government hates crime at all is that it despises competition. - Frem

CITIZEN

Saturday, February 12, 2011 9:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
...

Quote:
One of the basic assumptions of thermodynamics is the idea that we can arbitrarily divide the universe into a system and its surroundings.

And so on and so forth.

I pulled this out specifically because it's fairly to the point. The assumption of the laws of Thermodynamics is the same assumptions of science itself, that the universe is real, and exists and can be studied and systematised. It would seem a moot point to say it has assumptions when they're of that nature, it would be like mentioning each time we talk that we're assuming this conversation is actually happening and this isn't a delusion.

I'm aware that Thermodynamics doesn't apply everywhere, but then it wasn't meant to. It applies to perpetual motion machines though.

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
I am saying, EVERYTHING in science, including laws, axioms, and postulates, have an inherent uncertainty that makes it possible for self-correction. In other words, nothing in science is absolute.

Yes of course, but you are taking that too far in a way. Just because we don't know everything, just because our current theories aren't perfect, doesn't mean that we know nothing or that anything is possible.

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