Real World Event Discussions

What is science?

POSTED BY: canttakesky
UPDATED: Sunday, August 30, 2026 21:01
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CANTTAKESKY

Thursday, February 10, 2011 11:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
I'd suggest that "someone" doesn't understand what is meant by perpetual motion. Perpetual motion is where a closed system creates more energy than it has applied to it.

I see. So you are defining perpetual motion in such a manner as to be contrary to the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

This is what Wiki says:

Quote:
Perpetual motion describes hypothetical machines that operate or produce useful work indefinitely and, more generally, hypothetical machines that produce more work or energy than they consume, whether they might operate indefinitely or not.

I would have gone with just the first part: "hypothetical machines that operate or produce useful work indefinitely"--whether they produce more work or energy or not. But that is just me.

What would you say if someone said nuclear reactions (say, the sun) are an example of perpetual motion, as you defined it: producing more energy than it has applied to it?

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Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.

KANEMAN

Thursday, February 10, 2011 1:13 PM

Well, just last night every major broadcast aired that a new study may link diet soda to strokes, however what they did not tell you was that there was no control for family history of strokes/heart attacks or weight.

Even worse is this whole idea, which was doomed to failure before it began, that most dieseases and behaviors have a genetic basis(Come on admit it you have bought into that since it was first sold and this is why dispite years and billions of dollars VERY few cures have come out of genetic mapping or biomed). We fail to see humanity in a simple naturistic manner, not in the way liberals see it. See, any baby born with the ability to see, that is then left in the dark for five years will lose the ability to see.

Only 7% of women with breast cancer have the "genetic marker" for tit cancer, and the % of women that have the marker and get cancer are slightly higher than those without.

I guess I am trying to say is scientific discovery is only as good as the manner in which it is conveyed to the rest of humanity. When we are constantly told how things "are", as if it were the word of god, and the reality is far different science becomes UNRELIABLE....think..the health benefits of eggs. Ask yourself this....Are they bad for you?

Now, I am going to go snort a bit of coke....Psst, it is good for you.

HARDWARE

Thursday, February 10, 2011 1:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:

And yet all those things are now accepted by the "scientific establishment", proving that science is sceptical but that "radical new ideas" will gain traction if there's something to them. Or in other words, your list only goes to show that science works more or less pretty well and exactly how it's supposed to, that my original statements you're arguing against are correct and that the only thing falling on it's face is your argument :p.

My original idea as stated was that science rejects ideas that fly in the face of the establishment. You leapt to the defense of science. I provided proof to support my assertion. You are now trying to lay claim to the very thing you said did not happen.

Stop moving the goalposts. Oh, wait. You're doing exactly what the science establishment does.

Science is measurable and repeatable. Science establishment reproduces bad ideas rejecting new ideas with measurable repeatable results.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

CITIZEN

Thursday, February 10, 2011 4:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
I'd suggest that "someone" doesn't understand what is meant by perpetual motion. Perpetual motion is where a closed system creates more energy than it has applied to it.
I see. So you are defining perpetual motion in such a manner as to be contrary to the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

This is what Wiki says:
Quote:
Perpetual motion describes hypothetical machines that operate or produce useful work indefinitely and, more generally, hypothetical machines that produce more work or energy than they consume, whether they might operate indefinitely or not.

I would have gone with just the first part: "hypothetical machines that operate or produce useful work indefinitely"--whether they produce more work or energy or not. But that is just me.

Either way the definition I used is spot on, a machine that once set going doesn't stop even if no further force is applied to it. If you're extracting energy from the system (i.e. useful work) for the machine to carry on running it would have to be generating more energy that was put into it in the first place. If you think about it the longer definition is still implied by the shorter one you picked out.

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
What would you say if someone said nuclear reactions (say, the sun) are an example of perpetual motion, as you defined it: producing more energy than it has applied to it?

I'd say E=MC2. Those reactions are burning fuel, in the case of most types of Fusion Hydrogen, and releasing energy that is bottled up within the matter itself. In essence the Sun isn't producing more energy than it has had applied to it, it is converting one type of energy into another, and not at perfect efficiency either. Hence why one day the sun will "die".

Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:
My original idea as stated was that science rejects ideas that fly in the face of the establishment. You leapt to the defense of science.

No, I said if a new idea has merit it will gain traction and be accepted. For your original assertion to hold any weight all those "radical new ideas" would have to still be dismissed by this secretive "scientific establishment" cabal you've fantasised into being.

Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:
I provided proof to support my assertion.

And I pointed out that your "proof" supports my statements, and completely dismisses yours. You claim the scientific establishment won't accept anything that doesn't agree with current theory. I said that there was inertia against complete changes, but that if the new idea had merit it would eventually gain traction. If you can't see how a list of things that were originally rejected but then gained acceptance because they had merit fits what I have been saying all along, and disproves what you said, then I don't see any point talking to you further on this.

Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:
You are now trying to lay claim to the very thing you said did not happen.

Either you didn't read my post, didn't understand it, or are making shit up. I said nothing of the sort.

Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:
Stop moving the goalposts. Oh, wait. You're doing exactly what the science establishment does.

I'm not moving any goalposts, my position hasn't wavered a bit. It's you that claimed the "scientific establishment" won't accept new ideas; then decided to wave your arms around and start casting aspersions on people in a vain attempt to cover up the fact that all the new ideas you claimed weren't accepted by the insular scientific establishment, were in fact accepted by the self same "scientific establishment". I can't help it if logic isn't your strong point.

Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:
Science is

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CANTTAKESKY

Thursday, February 10, 2011 6:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by CITIZEN:
Either way the definition I used is spot on, a machine that once set going doesn't stop even if no further force is applied to it.

Well, no.

Let's revisit the 2 definitions:

1. Perpetual motion describes hypothetical entities that operate or produce useful work indefinitely.
2. Perpetual motion is where a closed system creates more energy than it has applied to it.

In the case of a revolving planet, one person might say that was perpetual motion (#1) while you would say that doesn't meet your definition because it isn't a closed system that violates the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics (#2).

So the two definitions are not one and the same. They operate on different assumptions (e.g. closed vs open system). The second CAN be, but is not necessarily, implied by the first.

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Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.

BYTEMITE

Thursday, February 10, 2011 6:48 PM

Darn, I didn't want to get into this.

Wikipedia says this:

Quote:
The second law of thermodynamics is an expression of the tendency that over time, differences in temperature, pressure, and chemical potential equilibrate in an isolated physical system. From the state of thermodynamic equilibrium, the law deduced the principle of the increase of entropy and explains the phenomenon of irreversibility in nature. The second law declares the impossibility of machines that generate usable energy from the abundant internal energy of nature by processes called perpetual motion of the second kind.

Sounds to me like the definition of a perpetual motion machine requires it to violate the second law of thermodynamics. The concept of a perpetual motion machine (or entity) also seems to require it to be a closed system.

Not to say it couldn't be done, or that the second law is immutable (under certain conditions? Or that there's not a better law out there). But it'd definitely be a trick.

From the article on perpetual motion:

Quote:
While the laws of physics are incomplete and stating that physical things are absolutely impossible is un-scientific, "impossible" is used in common parlance to describe those things which absolutely cannot occur within the context of our current formulation of physical laws.

Also:

Quote:
Any proposed perpetual motion design offers a potentially instructive challenge to physicists: one is almost completely certain that it can't work, so one must explain how it fails to work.

It's entirely possible that dismissals of perpetual motion machines are a case of scientific moving the goalposts. However, some of it is also probably quackery, and so it's fair to be a little skeptical.

If someone could pull it off? Paradigm shift.

CITIZEN

Thursday, February 10, 2011 6:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Quote:
Originally posted by CITIZEN:
Either way the definition I used is spot on, a machine that once set going doesn't stop even if no further force is applied to it.
Well, no. In the case of a revolving planet, one person might say that was perpetual motion while you would say that doesn't meet your definition because it doesn't violate the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics.

So the two definitions are not one and the same. The second definition can be, but is not necessarily, implied by the first.

No, they couldn't, since you can't derive useful work from the orbit of a planet, which was a part of your butchered quote. An orbiting planet doesn't fulfil any criteria for a perpetual motion machine, since it's movement is due to an external force, and as I've already pointed out, a planet won't keep orbiting indefinitely, just a very long time. For instance the moon is slowly moving away from the Earth, due to energy loses from the very forces that keep it orbiting.

I'm not going to carry on with these silly semantics. The definition you keep pushing for is wrong, and harping on with this planet analogy merely shows a lack of understanding of orbital mechanics. Planets aren't perpetual motion machines, under any definition one cares to make up to attempt to redefine the term.

CITIZEN

Thursday, February 10, 2011 7:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Quote:
Originally posted by CITIZEN:
Either way the definition I used is spot on, a machine that once set going doesn't stop even if no further force is applied to it.
Well, no.

Let's revisit the 2 definitions:

1. Perpetual motion describes hypothetical entities that operate or produce useful work indefinitely.
2. Perpetual motion is where a closed system creates more energy than it has applied to it.

In the case of a revolving planet, one person might say that was perpetual motion (#1) while you would say that doesn't meet your definition because it isn't a closed system that violates the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics (#2).

So the two definitions are not one and the same. They operate on different assumptions (e.g. closed vs open system). The second CAN be, but is not necessarily, implied by the first.

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Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.

I note, for the record, you neatly ignored the salient point of my post:

Quote:
If you're extracting energy from the system (i.e. useful work) for the machine to carry on running it would have to be generating more energy that was put into it in the first place.

Or it would have to have an energy supply from outside, which means it's not a perpetual motion machine, it's just an engine.

So by your definition, a generator hooked up to an oil refinery would be a perpetual motion machine. Which frankly makes your definition rather silly.

DREAMTROVE

Thursday, February 10, 2011 8:37 PM

Byte,

Perpetual motion within the confines of a closed system has been done with nanotechnology. One could argue that it's drawing energy from the fabric of space-time, but that's as much as saying that the concept closed system doesn't exist.

Ergo, the 2nd law, like the physics of its time, is simply out of date, and it all should be viewed as an approximation of systems on a human scale, like a steam engine. Since we know far more now than they did then, we know that the fact that there is no closed system can be exploited ad infinitem, so the restriction and rules thus applied become meaningless.

Quote:
In 1908 U.S. inventor, businessman and engine builder Glenn Curtiss flew an aileron-controlled aircraft. However Curtiss had previously been a member of the Aerial Experiment Association, headed by Alexander Graham Bell. The Association had previously developed ailerons for their aircraft.[3] The AEA members were later dismayed when Curtiss dropped out of their organization, patented their innovation and reportedly sold the patent to the United States Government.

This does not actually disprove the idea that Curtiss invented the aileron, which is claimed on several other entries, and the inclusion of Bell's name is meaningless, since Bell didn't really invent anything, the telephone was invented by Gray and Barton. But Curtiss was on a team that developed it, but it's entirely possible he invented it himself on that team.

That said, many similar innovations had proceeded it. As I said, many people had input into the final idea. I feel pretty confident with the idea that Curtiss created the completed entity that we call the airplane, but he did it our of pieces from all over. Gliders way preceded this.

BYTEMITE

Thursday, February 10, 2011 9:15 PM

Quote:
Perpetual motion within the confines of a closed system has been done with nanotechnology. One could argue that it's drawing energy from the fabric of space-time, but that's as much as saying that the concept closed system doesn't exist.

Interesting, this makes immediate logical sense.