Joss's politics
POSTED BY: doublethink84
UPDATED: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 13:09
VIEWED: 14982
PAGE 5 of 6
Quote:As someone who loves Firefly and keeps up with politics, I found this article fascinating. First, a bit that makes me wonder about this rag’s fact checking:
Originally posted by SimonF:
Finally found a scan on the interview with the now defunct Face magazine.
http://www.slayerverse.de/tanet/net_buffy_us/?navi=news.php&id=3873
Quote:Huh??
“The Firefly future also has the US colonising Britain, adopting a king as ruler, and making Londonium the capital of its empire.”
More germane to this thread is the following surprising (at least to me) paragraph:
Quote:He was a corrupt deal-maker but his administration was a beautiful thing? If somebody here posted something so self-contradictory they’d be torn to shreds (and rightly so). Either the magazine grossly misrepresented the conversation, or more likely, it just goes to show that a genius in one field isn’t any more likely to be smart about politics than the rest of us.
Joss worships Bill Clinton, recognising in him a kindred spirit, a Democrat with moral vision, who could nonetheless engage the masses and make things happen: “Not that he didn’t do the corrupt deal-making things, like every other politician – but the Clinton presidency was a beautiful thing.”
Quote:It’s too bad that anybody thinks that the “every circumstance” doesn’t include both the fascist force-monger Bush-ites AND socialist force-monger Clinton-ites.
[speaking about Firefly] “The whole point is the triumph of the human spirit,” he says. “The tiny man crushed by every circumstance lives on, and that is the triumph.”
Anyway, I love Firefly.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tiger:Quote:He was a corrupt deal-maker but his administration was a beautiful thing? If somebody here posted something so self-contradictory they’d be torn to shreds (and rightly so). Either the magazine grossly misrepresented the conversation, or more likely, it just goes to show that a genius in one field isn’t any more likely to be smart about politics than the rest of us.
Joss worships Bill Clinton, recognising in him a kindred spirit, a Democrat with moral vision, who could nonetheless engage the masses and make things happen: “Not that he didn’t do the corrupt deal-making things, like every other politician – but the Clinton presidency was a beautiful thing.”
Good morning Tiger. I don't mean to get on your case. It's just that you describe exactly what I can't stand about political discussions these days. Everybody's gone crazy with the logic and the forensic league rend and conquer techniques: "Ahah, I see a logical fallacy in your argument... I have you now!" Time was, being able to hold two seemingly contradictory concepts in your mind at once was a sign of sanity and maturity. Now it's grounds for being "torn to shreds."
To understand Joss's statement you have to take him seriously when he says, "...like every other politician..." From this, and other things he's said, we know that Joss has a pretty jaundiced view of politics and politicians. But even in a corrupt system some good can be done. When it's the only system we have, you gotta make the best of it, y'know? Seems reasonable to me that Joss would approve of a lot of things a man might do, without believing the man himself to be some paragon of virtue.
Ever try to explain Mal Reynold's ethics to someone? The man is a mass of contradictions--noble and petty, decent and ruthless all at once. I think a lot of what he stands for is beautiful and at the same time I think he's kind of a psycho.
Why is it we're so ready to tear people to shreds when we don't understand what they're getting at?
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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Quote:It still is. But CONSIDERING two contradictory ideas at the same time is different from BELIEVING two contradictory ideas at the same time. The former is a testament to critical thinking; the latter is an indication of self dilusion (if not worse). Hey we're all guilty of it sometimes.
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Time was, being able to hold two seemingly contradictory concepts in your mind at once was a sign of sanity and maturity.
Quote:First, it's entirely possible that the magazine has Joss's words all mixed up and out of context. I've been mis-quoted in newspapers so badly that I started to wonder who the other guy was with my name living in my town. But even if they only got this part right, "the Clinton administration was a beautiful thing" it justifies my comment about geniuses and politics.
Seems reasonable to me that Joss would approve of a lot of things a man might do, without believing the man himself to be some paragon of virtue.
Quote:Yes I have, and no he isn't. When has the character ever contradicted himself? He doesn't like to be told what to do, he wants to keep flying, he hates the alliance, and he shows compassion when it won't interfere too much with the first three. He's the most consistent character on the show; hell, maybe in most shows on TV.
Ever try to explain Mal Reynold's ethics to someone? The man is a mass of contradictions--
Quote:Barring a screw-up by the magazine as previously mentioned, we do understand what he was getting at, he was very clear. Again, geniuses and politics.
Why is it we're so ready to tear people to shreds when we don't understand what they're getting at?
I say, enjoy his shows and movies. There's no doubt the man knows what to do with a story and I respect him greatly for that. But review his politics just as critically as you would any other stranger's. Even for most liberals, calling the Clinton administration 'beautiful' is a reach.
And what's up with the king of Londonium?
---------------------------------------------
...The beauty of things was born before eyes and sufficient to itself; the heart-breaking beauty
Will remain when there is no heart to break for it.
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Quote:
Originally posted by KernelM:
In his DVD commentaries, he has mentioned more than once that he doesn't like guns (but of course respects the genre trappings of a Western).
Come to europe, you'll find millions of right wing people who are against guns.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tiger:
He was a corrupt deal-maker but his administration was a beautiful thing?
Unlike you, he understands life isn't black and white.
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Tiger- Doncha get it???
The whole theme of Firefly as far as I can tell is when a person loses his (or her) certitudes and is left only with a moral compass.
Mal lost is belief is God, his belief that right makes might, possibly even his belief in himself as a "good person". When all of the landmarks were eliminated from his moral landscape, all he had left was a direction to guide him through ambiguous choices- not always between "good" and "bad" but between "bad" and "less bad". Sometimes, Mal engages in corrupt dealings (like transporting slaves) for a greater good (keeping his crew together).
I think Joss sees Clinton as being the same: a person with compassion maintaining his direction in an environment when most people are going the other way. Choices weren't certain, sometimes he engaged in deal-making in order to further the vision... and always with the knowledge that enganging too much in the opposition's tactics can change him too.
Now, I'm not a big fan of Clinton's. I think he went over to the dark side with the whole concept of "free trade uber alles". But I think I understand Joss' fascination with Clinton because in some ways he is very much like Mal.
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Quote:I can't understand the position that Mal is morally unsure of himself. You see, he DOESN'T transport slaves. He doesn't even take the money AND the cargo from Patience when he had the chance (and who could really blame him if he did?)
Originally posted by SignyM:
Tiger- Doncha get it???
...all he [Mal] had left was a direction to guide him through ambiguous choices- not always between "good" and "bad" but between "bad" and "less bad". Sometimes, Mal engages in corrupt dealings (like transporting slaves) for a greater good (keeping his crew together).
He may feel betrayed, let down by life (or God), he may feel that, "none of it means a damn thing", but he still lives by his moral code. Right is right, and wrong is wrong. What's great about the show, is that doing what's right comes with it's negative side too (just like real life). Mal's decisions aren't easy, clear-cut, or black and white. He has his moral code, follows it as best he can, and lives with the consequences either way.
Quote:I don't know for sure how Joss sees Clinton. The article in question only included one quote directly from Joss, and the rest as filler by the writer. Who knows how accurate it is. But Clinton DID NOT maintain his direction as a Democrat - he signed welfare reform, sent troops to Somalia and Bosnia (among others). Not to say he was any worse than any other president in the 20th-21st century, but he still compromised his values for political clout that would first get him reelected, then secure his "legacy".
I think Joss sees Clinton as being the same: a person with compassion maintaining his direction in an environment when most people are going the other way.
"What president hasn't done that?", you ask? Well, none. That's what politicians do. Clinton, Bush, Gore, Reagan, all do it. The point of my earlier post was concerning Joss's quote that the Clinton administration was "beautiful", and some people's tendency to follow someone politically just because they're a genius in another field.
But really, after all this discussion, we only have the one quote from the one article. At the very least it's an incomplete representation of Joss's ideas.
Anyway, Mal is my hero for being what he is despite all the shit he's had piled on him, and Joss is my hero for creating him and the universe he lives in.
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I think we actually agree, just coming at it from different directions. I liked the way you summarized Mal's viewpoint. BTW- the slave-trading ep was an unaired one.
I agree with you about Clinton- I didn't want to get into a rant about his policy failings. OTOH- he did raise the minimum wage and significantly advanced environmental protection. My personal viewpoint is his biggest failing was far too much faith in "free enterprise".
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Quote:
BTW- the slave-trading ep was an unaired one.
There're probably any number of our fellow Browncoats who've watched the DVDs more than I, but I think I've watched 'em enough to call you on this one.
There ARE no episodes, aired or unaired (or even un-filmed, if you count the "Dead or Alive" script), in which Mal and crew engage in or even condone slave-trading. Unless you are liberal-minded enough to include our bovine brothers and sisters from "Shindig" and "Safe". Moreover, he deliberately steals from and beats up acknowledged slave-traders in "Shindig" during the teaser ("they earned this by the sweat of their slave-trading brow[s]"). And upon realizing the people-as-chattel implications of his unwitting "marriage" to Saffron in "Our Mrs Reynolds", he becomes incensed to the point of near-sanctimonious-ness (how's THAT for a made-up word?).
The closest they came to acceptance was in "Jaynestown", during which Mal encounters the de facto slavery of the Mudders...and says nothing about it. Hell, even Jayne is nearly moved to rabble-rouser-y(that's two) by their plight. But Mal just wants to get the job done and get out, hoping things go smooth...even so, to imply he approves of or accepts slavery is more than a stretch; it tears one's credulity in twain.
I'll defend Mal's overall moral fiber further by pointing out his blood-stained encounter with the piratical crew in "Out of Gas". After he regains the upper hand - or at least the "drop" - on them, and they are disembarking, the "anti-Mal" remarks, "You would've done the same." And how does our morally ambiguous Captain respond? NOT by taking the idea into consideration, by hesitating. But instantly, vehemently, with "We can already see that I haven't." Hell, I felt his moral outrage at that moment. Just one of many instances I can recall that beautifully sketches out Mal's character.
On a more conciliatory note, I do believe Joss felt obligated to exercise restraint in portraying moral ambiguity in his little crew. He hints at this during the DVD commentaries. Apparently, some of FOX's network notes kept Joss & Co from going to some "pretty dark places" with our heroes.
No comment on Slick Willie...whoooooole 'nuther can o'wrigglers there
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Hmmm... I must have dreamed that one up. I seem to recall reading a script that had Mal transporting slaves, one slave escaping and being hidden by the FF crew.
Along with that, there was another script that had to do with the blowing up of a ball-bearing factory by a Browncoat, with a lot of ppl being injured because the opening of the factory was being celebrated by a fair, and the fair-goers were injured.
I dunno- maybe they were fanfics that I got confused with actual scripts. Does anyone else remember these?
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