Broancoat War Atrocities?

POSTED BY: Sardonica
UPDATED: Thursday, July 29, 2004 23:01
VIEWED: 8613
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KELLAINA

Thursday, July 29, 2004 12:22 AM

Y'know I had never really noticed this before - but you're right. There seems to be little to justify the Alliance as being inherently evil. It's sort of assumed that we should be siding with the Independents. But as has already been pointed out it's all shades of grey. Both sides likely committed atrocities, intentionally and unintentionally (as Zoe explained to Simon in the deleted scene, soldiers from both sides were left in Serenity Valley to die).

What I've always assumed (and this is just my opinion) is that the Alliance was a typical big government - only interested in its own interests. Getting people to settle on border planets gets them out of the core (preventing overpopulation) and allows the Alliance to exploit any potential resource the settlers may find or develop (hence the need for unification). But if nothing of any value to the Alliance is on the planet, well they're pretty much on their own. Which means the border worlds may need to defend themselves against Reavers, disease, natural disaster.

The border planets were likely being forced to unify, with little to no benefit to them and any potential benefits going to the core planets (tech, science developments etc). As we've seen from our own history it doesn't take much to start a war, and once started wars have a tendency to grow.

One border planet may have refused to join and the Alliance (was it called the Alliance before U-day?) took that planet by force. And then all the other border planets and whoever else disagreed with the use of force fought back and well... a war happened.

My theory (and its only a theory) is that the Alliance wasn't too thrilled with planets trying to defend themselves (against the Reavers in particular, but any defense could potentially be used against the Alliance). And when border planets requested aid in defending against the Reavers the Alliance looked the other way (Hence Mal's comment on 'interfering and ignoring equally' - I'm not sure of the exact quote).

This ties in to another theory that this may have been what prompted Mal to join the Independents. Something happened on Shadow that was caused either by some action or inaction on the part of the Alliance (and Mal does know an awful lot about Reavers...).

But that's just my long-winded, rambling 2 cents .

CCT

Thursday, July 29, 2004 3:14 AM

My two cents-
"The Killer Angels", by Michael Shaara, is supposedly something that Joss read and somewhat modeled the Firefly universe after... specifically the battle of Gettysburg was the model for the battle of Serenity Valley...it's a good read.

As I was reading the discussion I kept thinking about things I read in that book, about the economical and political climate that brought the conflict about.

The simple truth is that the war wasn't about slavery; though that was a factor the real issues were of "states rights", i.e. what was to be controlled federally and what was handled at the local level, and a whole host of complex financial issues in how we were trading with the rest of the world.

The north had money and technology but initially didn't really have its heart in the fight; the south had a real deficit in those areas but a brilliant general and an overabundance of heart. I remember one passage where northern troupes were talking with captured southern troupes, asking them why they were fighting for independence. The northerners couldn't understand at first- it sounded like they were fighting for "rats"! What the southerners were saying was that they were fighting for their rights but their accent confused their captors! The real point of this is most of the northern troupes were fighting to maintain the union without really knowing or understanding why their southern brothers wanted to leave... much was not understood by both sides.

The pain and suffering were immense, on a scale that none of us today have any comprehension of. I think that's what Joss is trying to model, as the background for the show.

Anyway, I've clearly rambled here, and most likely said some stuff that may get me pounced on :) If you're the kind of person that enjoys a good historical novel then The Killer Angels is a good read and will provide you with a lot of insight into our favorite show!

Chris in KC

GRACEOM

Thursday, July 29, 2004 7:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by cct:
My two cents-
"The Killer Angels", by Michael Shaara, is supposedly something that Joss read and somewhat modeled the Firefly universe after... specifically the battle of Gettysburg was the model for the battle of Serenity Valley...it's a good read.

As I was reading the discussion I kept thinking about things I read in that book, about the economical and political climate that brought the conflict about.

[snipped]

Chris in KC

I don't want to debate the issues behind the Civil War--and I can certainly buy that what you say was likely to have been part of what went into Joss's brain only to be mixed and mutated and pop back out again as Firefly. But I've been thinking that a better analogy for the situation of the independents might be the American Revolution--a revolution that the colonists lost.

While the Revolution may have been driven by local landowners who were tired of seeing all the political power going to royal favorites who had no real stake in the new land beyond enriching themselves, the average Joe was tired of being expected to be loyal to a government which took their tax money and did nothing help with their local issues. Like the colonists of Firefly, these were people who had carved their livings out of nothing, and with reason felt beholden to no one. Doesn't make the Brits evil, more...irrelevant to the daily lives of the colonists. Therefore, attempts of the crown to assert authority were an irritation that eventually bred insurrection.

So essentially I'm agreeing that we don't know that the Alliance is BAD per se, more that they were poking their noses where they weren't wanted.

Makes sense to me, anyway

Grace

TANJAK

Thursday, July 29, 2004 8:19 PM

There’s a line in the shooting script for Serenity (the pilot, not the movie) where the Captain of the I.A.V Dortmunder says, as they are passing the derelict ship Mal and crew are looting:

Quote:
CAPTAIN:
“Crew, a moment of respect, if you please. Passing a graveyard.”

The other men in the ship respond by pulling off their hats and slightly bowing their heads, a couple looking out at the approaching ghostship.

I wished they’d left that in the episode. It makes the Alliance even more ambiguous.

We really only get Mal and Zoe’s view of the Alliance in the show. We don’t see why Inara supported, and presumably still supports, the Alliance. Book seems to. Simon did. Jayne didn’t care much, and neither, it appears, did Wash.

Mal and Zoe still obviously don’t like the Alliance. And they have trouble getting honest work after the war.

I look at the Union after the Civil War as an example. They weren’t evil and horrible. But horrible and just plain unjust things happened in the South after the war, and to the Confederates.

LEXIBLOCK

Thursday, July 29, 2004 8:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Apex:
Saffrin/Yolander was arguably lying about that, tho... who knows.

Perhaps, but the others believed it. Ie, its something that probably has happened, they didn't react with incredulity.

THE7OFSWORDS

Thursday, July 29, 2004 8:58 PM

It's obvious that there are meant to be historical parallels in the Firefly milieu. (Big Damn Universe?) I think the American Revolution comparison is apt, but that the American Civil War comparison is slightly more so. This is a sci-fi western, after all, and a common theme in traditional westerns is the aftermath of the Civil War.

And unlike what most of our basic history classes tried to teach us, it really wasn't JUST about slavery. Slavery was a central issue, yes, but it fell into the larger context of the rights of people to vis-á-vis their governments, for whatever reason (see the American Revolution again), and economic issues.

When you come right down to it, the sides in most wars cannot be divided into 'good guys' and 'bad guys' (the Manichean outlook of some current U.S. political pundits notwithstanding). OK, the Confederacy was wrong on the issue of slavery, I doubt you'll find very many people who would argue that point to-day. (At least, I certainly HOPE not!) But they may well have been right about many other issues - many of the same issues that sparked the American Revolution.

The average Civil War soldier was not a slave owner, and, much like the soldiers of the American Revolution (who were not landowners, and, therefore, could not even vote after the revolution), were mostly the downtrodden, average people who were whooped into a frenzy by the people who REALLY stood to benefit from the outcome of war.

I think we're seeing the same thing with the Alliance v. Browncoats in Firefly. Both sides had their own valid points, and both sides had their 'good guys' and 'bad guys'. Ultimately, one point being made by the description of the Battle of Serenity Valley was that the common soldiers of both sides probably had a lot more in common with one another than they had in common with their respective leaders - and this has been shown throughout history, since at least the time of the Romans, all the way up to the First World War, and perhaps even in some of to-day's conflicts. (We will probably require some more historical perspective before that can truly be determined.)

This story, like all the greatest stories (into which category Firefly most definitely belongs), is universal... it draws on human history, sure, but it strips away the details and trappings of context, placing the core of itself into another context in order to teach us about some basic human TRUTHS.

Sorry to get all philosophical and historical in my first post, but that's one of the things I love so much about Firefly - it's such wonderful food for thought, debate, discussion, and (hopefully) enlightenment.

7

"When I look down, I miss all the good stuff,
when I look up, I just trip over things."
-Ani DiFranco _As Is_

RIJPE

Thursday, July 29, 2004 10:52 PM

I don't think that the Alliance is "evil" per se, but I think it is corrupt. It is very clear that the Alliance is only designed to serve the needs of the wealthy and/or influential.

They have proven that they would not help a dying man that ended up on their doorstep if that person wasn't known to be important.

Their guards shown on "The Train Job" refused to get involved in local trouble that may have meant life or death for hundreds of colnists.

If pirates or reavers a colony with important trade goods, they might make an effort to protect it. However, I suspect that if a poor colony of 5,000 people was about to be wiped out, and a nearby Alliance cruiser was investigating a minor theft on a rich yacht, that the cruiser would ignore the colonists in favor of helping the wealthy.

RIJPE

Thursday, July 29, 2004 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
It was vague as to who exactly had committed what atrocities and how they were committed. It could have been something done by one or both sides, either deliberately or as a result of modern warfare.

Quote:

Yes, it's certainly vague! But, IMHO, the line also seemed to be written/delivered as a barb to take some of the wind out've Malcom's sails. I don't think that the CO was referring to an atrocity committed by Mal, per se, but rather, I did get the impression that there might've been one particularly awful atrocity committed by the Browncoats, something which has made the news and entered into popular understanding of history.

Actually, I interpreted the interaction between the CO and Mal differently. I didn't see this statement as a barb at all -- I see a certain hesitation and discomfort in the "since the war" statement. I interpreted this statement:
"I haven't seen atrocities like this...since the war"
and the look on the CO's face to mean "I haven't seen atrocities like this since the war...but actually what I saw was carried out by Alliance officers on browncoats, and I suddenly feel weird saying this to a Browncoat"

Wouldn't suprise me a bit if the Alliance tortured some of their own men and blamed it on the Browncoats to turn other people against the Independents.

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