Ariel - and Mal's forgiveness

POSTED BY: TauSetiPrime
UPDATED: Monday, August 2, 2004 02:19
VIEWED: 23705
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DANFAN

Tuesday, July 27, 2004 1:54 PM

Soupcatcher

I followed the link you posted and read all of Parnell's article. I'm not ready to accept his thesis that the mishandling and ultimate cancellation of Firefly was a deliberate execution-style killing perpetrated by the suits at Fox to repudiate the underlying theme of Firefly (personal authority, personal accountability, code of honor). That seems a bit extreme.

However, I am perfectly willing to entertain the possibility that Fox mishandled Firefly because they disliked it. And they disliked it for reasons that even they weren't real clear on... the show "just didn't feel right." And the reason that it didn't feel right to them was that those pesky themes didn't fit into their unconcious (and unquestioned) belief structure.

In other words, I think that Parnell MIGHT be right about the root cause of Firefly's demise, but wrong about Fox executives' concious awareness of their motivations. This would be consistent with other programming choices made by Fox that seems to lack any connection to higher brain function...

DANFAN

Tuesday, July 27, 2004 2:05 PM

Liz,

[Later edit... In this response, I misread your original question and thought you meant Sapphron. I think I offer my opinion on your real question in the next post. But I think the further definition of Mal's "code" in this post is still pertinent...]

In rereading my original post, I feel that I might have confusingly blended two different things. Just for the sake of clarity, bear with me... In my opinion, Mal doesn't decide to kill/not kill based on the honor of the person he faces. He decides HOW he will deal with that person based upon their honor and his own code. It is their actions that decide (for him) whether he must kill or can spare the individual.

Honor - Because of Simon's honor, if he has to kill him, he will do so honorably. Because of Crow's lack of honor, if he has to kill him, he will feed him to the engine.

Options - Simon gave Mal another option. Crow did not.

Two separate dimensions to the decision tree.

To continue this idea, I think given his personal code, killing is a last resort with Mal. If he can, he solves problems another way. If he must kill, then how he does it is driven by his code of honor and that of his opponent.

So, if I'm right, why did Mal allow Sapphron to live? She clearly had no honor. In the first encounter, she behaved dishonorably AND she put the crew in dire peril. If Mal had had the opportunity to deal with her at the moment of peril, she would likely not have survived. But she escaped before that confrontation could come to pass. When he met up with her later in the brothel, there was no dire peril to be solved by her death, thus no reason to kill her. He did repay her at that time by busting her in the chops... in so doing, he treated her as if she were without honor, but it was no longer necessary or justified at that moment to exercise the last resort.

In the second encounter, she still was not honorable and Mal knew that. But Mal had choices (he CREATED choices!) other than killing her in that case. He could deceive her, do right by his crew, and let her live to pay for her own lack of honor. If she had put him in a position where the last resort was the only one left, he would have killed her. And since she had no honor, he would have treated her as if she had none (meaning she would have been engine lube or vacuum fodder).

DANFAN

Tuesday, July 27, 2004 4:17 PM

Liz,

In your question, you said Patience. My brain read Sapphron. I think my post explains (at least to me) why Mal reacted as he did to Sapphron at various times. And I think it explains the general principal that can be applied to the situation with Patience. But it doesn't directly address your question. My apologies.

Let's see... Patience. Wasn't she the governer of one of the outer planets that tried to ambush Mal and Zoe when they were working a deal?

If I have the setup right, then let's see...

1) Yep, Patience was dishonorable, and Mal knows it. That isn't a death sentence. It just means that Mal deals with her in light of that knowledge. He takes out her snipers and sets up his own (acceptable behavior by his code since she has proven herself dishonorable).

2) It turns into a shootin' match. If she gets shot and killed during the shootout, so be it. She brought it on by her own actions. Mal is dealing with very limited options in the middle of the shootout... it's shoot or get shot.

3) Once the shootin' was done and Patience was still alive but no longer able to bring the fight to him, Mal's options opened back up. He could be merciful if it didn't put him or his crew at risk. No more need to take the "last resort." So he closes the deal and moves on. Notice that even though she is helpless, he takes no more than he bargained for... as his honor requires of him.

Does this make more sense than my previous ramble?

PURPLEBELLY

Tuesday, July 27, 2004 4:29 PM

Zoe would be upset if anyone else greased Jayne, she's been savouring it so long.

LIZ

Tuesday, July 27, 2004 9:26 PM

yes, thank you DanFan. that "last resort" bit is what brought the whole theory together. thanks

THEREALME

Wednesday, July 28, 2004 3:43 AM

The Real Me, with all the authority at his disposal (which is to say NONE) hereby bestows upon Danfan the title "Arbiter of Honor".

The Real Me

SUPERFLY

Wednesday, July 28, 2004 4:22 AM

I hate to admit it, but it’s pretty late and I just couldn’t read through all the posts, so I might besaying something someone’s already said. For me, the whole incident with Jayne was a wonderful and productive plan on Mal’s part. We already know from the pilot that there’s an understanding between Mal and Jayne.

Mal: Why didn’t you turn on me?
Jayne: Money wasn’t good enough.
Mal: What happens when it is good enough?
Jayne: Well... that’ll be an interesting day.
Mal: I imagine it will be, at that.

(Taken from memory)

Mal needs Jayne. He needs him on the ship, and he needs him on the crew. Look at it. The crew has the perfect combination of people and skills. They have everyone they need to keep thingsgoing, including a thug like Jayne. Who else could have done the job with the Alliance mole inep. 1? Who could have taken out the snipers and killed TwoFry in part 2 of the same ep? Who could have shot out the breaker in one shot in OMR? Who could have... well.. You get the idea. Someone has to do the dirty work, and that falls to Jayne. He’s proven himself invaluable over and over (well, except for that embarrassing OIS ep.)

Mal knows he can’t trust Jayne (though Jayne is turning, ever so slowly). What they needed between them was a better understanding. So, I think Mal told him with that encounter: “You ever turn on me, I will know. You turn on me, you’ll get caught, and I’m gonna kill you.” Now, that’s the understanding they have between them.

I think it was just icing on the cake that Jayne felt shame. Kinda gives me just a little bit of hope for the big lug.

SOUPCATCHER

Wednesday, July 28, 2004 5:33 AM

Danfan,

You've pretty much outlined the problems I have with that part of Hank's article (his reasoning on why Firefly was canceled). I just don't think the Fox executives consciously thought things through to that level of detail. Subconsciously, who knows. So, while I think his theory is interesting, I don't think it's something that could ever be verified.

I just have a hard time giving the executives who canceled our beloved show any credit for analysis.

I shaved off my beard for you, devil woman!

JAYNEZTOWN

Monday, August 2, 2004 2:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by liz:
i think it's the remorse. the fact that he says "make something up. don't tell 'em what i done." Jayne feels guilty about turning on them. i think the way that Simon looked at him like he was a hero just made him re-think turning on him. or maybe hearing the screams of the people killed by the blue hand people made him think about what they must have done to River. For whatever reason Jayne didn't want to be thought of as a traitor and that remorse was enough for Mal to allow him to stay. (not enough to let him inside for a while though. )

Exactly for maybe the first time ever Jayne in his actions shows that he is something else other than a self centered, treacherous, money loving merc.

From the first time that Mal and Zoe saw Jayne they knew he was piece o work

Select to view spoiler:

...jayne and his previous filth friends holding firelfy at gun point but Mal is still in control and jayne gets persuaded to shoot his old friends for some loot

From day one Mal knows that Jayne can't be trusted, he's a mercenary for cripes sake but jobs are hard to come by in space and they need all the extra hands they can get. I think Mal was ready to kill Jayne many a time Mal might think he's silly, has a foul tongue, and is ready to betray those close to him for the right price, you'll notice at certain times Mal is ready to stare down Jayne or draw his gun if push comes to shove. The show is well scripted the reality is there is nothing worse than having a traitor willing to sell out for a couple of bucks..going back to the real world anyone recall that guy who got caught by the FBI and former KGB for shipping terror equipments explosives, detonators into the US for the right price ? The fact is it doesn't matter what group, nation or organisation you are if you have a turncoat/traitor on the inside it can cause real trouble and I think Whedon's Firefly did a great job of describing this in Ariel.

The character Jayne is well played, he has a funny way about him and seems almost primitive but he does have some good people around him. Jayne often comes across as a dumb buffon only in it for the cash, but he is a highly skilled Merc and handy in a fight so I guess this must be why Captain Mal allows him to stay. However Mal is no spanky clean hero like Superman or some Startrek Captain..if the going gets tuff and the bullets start coming Mal will fire at whatever gets in his way, in the pilot episode he drops the alliance cop in the blink of an eye, and the horse that gets in his way gets a bullet also. If push came to shove Mal would put a bullet in Jayne, the reason why Mal doesn't kill Jayne in the end of Ariel is because he finally stars to show remorse and Jayne starts to care about what the crew think of him.

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