Ahhh, religion...
POSTED BY: Niki2
UPDATED: Thursday, April 16, 2026 19:08
VIEWED: 10206
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CTTS, I agree. Of course, from what I write it’s obvious that I think organized religion represents a “need” for more than the things you listed. I’m more with Reaverman in that I both think that for SOME (perhaps many), religion is an easy way not to have to think for themselves, and that for many (tho’ I wouldn’t say ten to one), it’s a detriment to how they behave, and what little they DO think.
However, CTTS, I disagree that we need “faith” in anything. I can’t think of a single thing I have faith in, and I sat here trying. I don’t have faith in anything to be what it’s supposed to be 100%, or even a lower percentage for government, DEFINITELY not doctors or any of the other things you mentioned. I don’t have faith in any one person, including myself, or anything else I can come up with, not science, not nature, not even Buddhism...I believe in its tenants, but that doesn’t mean I put any “faith” in it to do anything FOR me. Certainly I have HOPE that any of those things might work the way I want...I guess the closest I have to any kind of faith is that if I hold to what I believe in, it will make me a better person. That’s as close as it comes.
Inspiration, strength, and companionship (a bit--just a bit--from humans, DEFINITELY some from animals), those I need. Especially the companionship of animals...no doubt to give me at least one thing to which I can get and from which I can receive unquestioning love. But faith? I can’t think of a thing anyone can mention in which I have faith...full faith anyway.
I don’t think faith means hope exists. I have tons of hope, but no faith that any of that hope will come to pass. It’s the hoping that’s enough for me. I guess it gives me hope when I see things like what happened in Child come to pass, and things like the people here sending me to the Gulf...but I recognize fully that it’s the cause of HUMANS which put those miners in that predicament in the first place, that mining deliberately puts people in danger without giving a damn, and that for everyone who donated here to help the Gulf, there are dozen who wouldn’t donate a penny to ANYTHING. So how is it we need faith, Shiny?
I do agree with you about organized religion however. My first memories of same are being hauled off to church by my parents; mother made sure I sat between them, so that when dad nodded off (inevitably) and began to snore, she could nudge me and I could nudge him to wake up. I never saw any indication that either of their “faiths” did a damned thing for them aside from that. The joke was always that dad got his best nap in church, and mom’s main feelings about God were fear—she was terrified of dying, because she believed she would be judged, and despite the fact she was unable to break free of her patterns and continued them to her dying day, she feared that judgment. Was a weird dichotomy to me.
And yes, I fully agree that one of the biggest problems about religion is making it about the “thing” (and you can count the concept of God among those “things), and not what the religion is supposed to be about at its core. You can also count the preacher/rabbi/imam/priest/etc. as one of the “things”, insofar as people blindly accept that one person is interpreting The Word of God and therefore faith in them and what they say is all that’s needed.
There are, I know unquestionably, people who think for themselves and follow what each religion is actually about, rejecting the interpretations as fallible and acting on the basis of the actual teachings, but I fear they are a minority. Them I hold in high esteem; in fact anyone who behaves according to the true tenants of a religion (because they ALL hold essentially the same things), whether only somewhat or fallibly, I respect. They, too, represent a minority to me.
In this case, I don't think anyone deiberately faked the unknown substance, however; judging from the timbre of the priest's remarks, I think it is as much a mystery to him as anyone else, and he'd rather it NOT
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By the way, as an afterthought, here's another wonderful thread of civility and intelligent debate, for which I thank you.
Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off 
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Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Ah, I didn't say people needed FAITH. I said people needed HOPE, inspiration, companionship, strength...mostly hope.
Fair enough. It was late and I misread what you were trying to say.
Quote:
You may find faith in a deity to be "non-thinking." But I bet you have faith in other institutions, perhaps say, medical doctors and government--despite evidence that they are not doing their jobs. Maybe you have faith in the IPCC, or vaccines, or seat belts. Whatever it is, I can bring you evidence that those things don't work properly, and you absolutely discount that evidence. We ALL have areas in which evidence don't matter, blind spots as it were, where we store our faith.
One person's interpretation may appear to be quite "not thinking" to another. But make no mistake. We ALL have faith in something. Just in different things.
I disagree. You seem to be operating on the idea that faith is "belief without proof", when it's really "belief without reason". You're right to say that I believe in many things without proof that my belief is validated. However, this isn't faith. When the evidence in favor of an idea is substantial enough, I believe it. If it's not, I dismiss it. I have reason to believe the things that I do.
Likewise, there are plenty of people I believe in, but no one that I have faith in. To have faith in someone, to my mind, is to meet them on the street and with no evidence, no past experience, and zero knowledge of what kind of person they are, you decide they are good people and will stand up for you and help you in your time of need. In other words, stupidity. The people I believe in have shown themselves to be worthy of that belief, as I have to them.
----------------------------
Once upon a midnight dreary, while i pron surfed, weak and weary.
Over many a strange and spurious pronsite of 'hot XXX galore'.
While I clicked my fav'rite bookmark, suddenly there came a warning.
And my heart was filled with mourning, mourning for my dear amour.
"Tis not possible!", I muttered, "give me back my free hardcore!"
Quoth the server,
404
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Quote:
Originally posted by Reaverman:
I disagree. You seem to be operating on the idea that faith is "belief without proof", when it's really "belief without reason". ... When the evidence in favor of an idea is substantial enough, I believe it. If it's not, I dismiss it. I have reason to believe the things that I do.
Good point. But, in my view, "proof vs. reason" is six of one and half a dozen of the other. What constitutes evidence of sufficient substance is ultimately subjective. What is "substantial enough" for you may not be substantial enough for me, you see? Who determines where the cut-off lies for something to be "substantial enough" to constitute "reason"?
Case in point, Jaynestown.
Did the mudders have substantial evidence that Jayne was a good man and hero? Looking at only FACTS, he DID drop a huge box of money on them. They DID get to keep that money. They HAD reason to believe what they did.
Enter new evidence. He confesses his motivation for dropping the money. But that doesn't change the FACTS at all, that despite what he intended to do, what he actually DID was good for the mudders. How do you define "goodness" and "hero"? By intention or deed? Maybe Jayne has goodness in him that he himself isn't aware of--evidenced by the reality of the actual goodness he accomplished. They might argue that they still had evidence "substantial enough" to keep their belief.
So, my contention is, by and large, one man's reasonable belief is another man's faith. One man's substantial reason is another man's lack of proof. One man's optimism is another man's gullibility. The framework of our belief systems rests ultimately on definitions and is ultimately subjective.
I therefore try not to be judgmental about other people's faiths.
Of course, sometimes I can't help but snicker. :) Esp when I see stories like this:
Insurance for pet rescue in event of the Rapture.
http://www.thestar.com/living/article/862663--christians-may-be-fine-w
ith-the-rapture-but-what-about-their-pets
http://eternal-earthbound-pets.com/
Hahaha.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
However, CTTS, I disagree that we need “faith” in anything.
Well, again, I wouldn't say we NEED faith. I think we NEED hope etc, and we use faith to project those needs ONTO various subjects. That is to say, I define faith as a psychological tool to meet our needs, rather than an object of need itself.
Here is an example. When interpreting dreams, many people try to interpret the artifacts of the dream--background, characters, objects, plot. Does being chased mean someone's going to come after me? Does a gray sky portent bad news in the future?
I once came across a school of dream interpretation that I found quite useful. You interpret the emotional content of the dream only. The actual dream artifacts, the being chased and the gray sky, are somewhat irrelevant. How you FEEL when you were being chased and how you feel under a gray sky--that is what matters. In this school, dreams simply allow you to express emotions and desires and fears that you repress when you're awake. Dreams help you express the needs you don't allow yourself to express in other means. Being chased allows you to express your feelings of helplessness perhaps, and gray skies may express your lack of control over your environment--if that was how you felt in the dream.
To me, dreams and faith have a lot in common. What you dream about, what you have faith in, doesn't matter so much. They are both tools for expressing and projecting one's emotions and needs, sometimes because they are repressed from other aspects of life.
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What struck me when I read your post, Reaverman, was Quote:
In a way, is that not the definition of how people view a priest, rabbi, etc? Or even, taken to the extreme, their god himself? And you’re right, it’s how I view “faith” too, as opposed to “belief”. But I don’t think I’d attribute it to “stupidity”...there are many reasons people adopt faith, for some it’s reflexive because of what they’re taught, for some it’s from study and self-determination, for some no doubt it’s belief that they’ve been “touched” by whichever god. That I’m incapable of bestowing complete faith in a god doesn’t make me “less stupid” than someone who is religious...I can’t come up with a term for the difference, but I definitely reject “stupid”. THAT fits, for me, when it comes to people who let their preacher, imam, etc., tell them what to do and they believe that person speaks for their god. To me that is gullibility, and perhaps ignorance—which is totally different from stupidity.
with no evidence, no past experience, and zero knowledge of what kind of person they are, you decide they are good people and will stand up for you and help you in your time of need
Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off
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CTTS—yes, “proof” and “reason” are subjective, but that doesn’t, to me, make them any less valid for the PERSON, given they’re utilizing either or both in their own lives, which are subjective.]quote] So, my contention is, by and large, one man's reasonable belief is another man's faith. One man's substantial reason is another man's lack of proof. One man's optimism is another man's gullibility. The framework of our belief systems rests ultimately on definitions and is ultimately subjective.
I therefore try not to be judgmental about other people's faiths.
Does pretty much sum it up when it comes to how I view religion, and I try not to judge others’ faiths, either, except as in how they pertain to me. But yes, snickering is inevitable when anything is taken too far, and my own bias comes from having been attacked and hounded by prosletyzers, so I know I have a prejudice when it comes to religions. Nonetheless, I try to show respect (for as long as possible!) and ask them to respect my beliefs in turn. Not surprisingly, it doesn’t work that often. THAT is the aspect of religion I like second least (first is it being prostituted to incite violence); that many people are so strongly convinced (or subconsciously so insecure?) that they can’t help attacking others who don’t think like them. Same as in politics...
I believe in that form of interpretation of dreams, too, and it's worked perfectly for me. With the addition of "what emotion did you wake up feeling?"
On the other hand, there are different levels of "dreamability". My husband never remembers having a dream in his life...of course he has, but he's a pretty closed-off person and not very self-aware. I used sometimes have people on my website post their dreams and ask others what they think it means. Then there are those of us to whom our subconscious "speaks" very clearly, and so much so that it makes me laugh sometimes. A good 75% of the time I can interpret what my dreams are about...maybe because my subconscious isn't imaginative, I dunno.
But here's a perfect example: Back in the bad old days, when we had custody of Jeff, it was pretty bad. Jim didn't relate to him, and Jeff wanted him to desperately, so Jeff acted out. On particularly bad time, I dreamed Jim was standing on the San Francisco side of the Bay, Jeff was standing on the Marin side, and I was this giant standing with a foot in the water on both sides, reaching for Jim to bring him over...but I couldn't get ahold of him, and I felt very frustrated and sad. I mean, how much clearer can that be?!?! That happens to me all the time; I also get dreams that make no sense, aside from the emotion, but it always makes Jim and Choey and I laugh when I have one of those so-obvious ones. So does Choey, by the way, and a few other bipolars I've known. We are kind of FORCED to become self-aware to a degree in order to control our disorder as best we can, so maybe that's why.
So I think it's a combination of different things for different people. The emotion thing is definitely the key, no matter what. That is unquestionable to me. But depending on what kind of person you are, how self-aware, seems to me to determine how clearly your subconscious will "talk" to you. On the other hand, if you're not comfortable with yourself or un-self-aware, I think our subconscious uses allegory and imagination to bring about the emotion sought. Whatcha think?Quote:
That's a very interesting and thought-provoking statement. I want to think about that, and write it down to remember. I'm not so sure faith represents something repressed from other aspects of life, tho' you may be right, but the conundrum comes to me when so much anger, hate and rejection comes out of faith toward other faiths
To me, dreams and faith have a lot in common. What you dream about, what you have faith in, doesn't matter so much. They are both tools for expressing and projecting one's emotions and needs, sometimes because they are repressed from other aspects of life.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
In a way, is that not the definition of how people view a priest, rabbi, etc? Or even, taken to the extreme, their god himself? And you’re right, it’s how I view “faith” too, as opposed to “belief”. But I don’t think I’d attribute it to “stupidity”...there are many reasons people adopt faith, for some it’s reflexive because of what they’re taught, for some it’s from study and self-determination, for some no doubt it’s belief that they’ve been “touched” by whichever god. That I’m incapable of bestowing complete faith in a god doesn’t make me “less stupid” than someone who is religious...I can’t come up with a term for the difference, but I definitely reject “stupid”. THAT fits, for me, when it comes to people who let their preacher, imam, etc., tell them what to do and they believe that person speaks for their god. To me that is gullibility, and perhaps ignorance—which is totally different from stupidity.
I didn't intend to apply "stupidity" to religious belief. I know plenty of highly intelligent people who've been suckered by the invisible reward system that most religions employ. I was calling that specific scenario, i.e. believing positive things about a perfect stranger with zero reason to do so, stupid.
Religion is not "stupid" per se, but rather "enforced ignorance". At the core of every single religion, the root that they all came from, is ignorance. The fact that primitive peoples lacked the tools to make accurate observations of the natural phenomena they were seeing. Our natural curiosity drove people to look for answers, but without the aforementioned tools, the best explainations they could come up with were just as mystical and unexplainable as the things they were trying to explain. "God/the gods did it" is, after all, much more satisfying than no answer at all.
Only now that we have the tools to begin finding the real answers, religion, the remnant of our ignorant past, clings to life and seems to drag us down as a species, more often than it lifts us up. It's like the appendix of the mind: obsolete, useless, and extremely dangerous when it becomes inflamed.
----------------------------
Once upon a midnight dreary, while i pron surfed, weak and weary.
Over many a strange and spurious pronsite of 'hot XXX galore'.
While I clicked my fav'rite bookmark, suddenly there came a warning.
And my heart was filled with mourning, mourning for my dear amour.
"Tis not possible!", I muttered, "give me back my free hardcore!"
Quoth the server,
404
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Oh, wow, Reaverman, how well put. And exactly what I believe; you covered it pretty much completely where I'm concerned.
Until/unless we "evolve" past things like religion, we are doomed never to evolve into anything better than we are, in my opinion. Religion isn't the only one, but it may well be the biggest roadblock.
"Enforced ignorance". Excellent. Also "Invisible reward system". I'll remember those.
Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off
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I'm afraid I have to disagree with you on a few things. I hope it doesn't destroy the relative civility this thread has enjoyed so far.
Quote:
I agree that, as human beings, without the things you mentioned we would just fall apart. Where I disagree is that, from what I've seen, for every person uplifted and inspired by faith to be better people, there are ten who turn into complete assholes and/or unbelievable morons because of it. Unreasoning, unquestioning, unthinking belief of any kind has wrought more pain, death, destruction and grief than any other single thing in human history.
Observing a group of people who react differently than you do and you can't possibly be the one that's wrong? I suspect much of the assholishness and relative intelligence is a matter of perspective, but I was not there, and even though I find that ratio hard to believe, you are the best authority on what you have experienced. I won't argue that there is no shortage of religious nutjobs in the world, but I would argue that it is not religion that makes them nutjobs. That would be human nature and the occasional charismatic leader who bends religious ideals to suit his or her purposes. However, the religion makes an excellent target doesn't it? Nice... big... easy to hit. I can't speak for all religions, but what my own experiences (from my religion and conversations with folks of other faiths) is that blind faith is generally not encouraged. Quite the opposite. Blind faith is viewed more like apathy, ignorance or laziness.
Quote:
Religion is not "stupid" per se, but rather "enforced ignorance". At the core of every single religion, the root that they all came from, is ignorance. The fact that primitive peoples lacked the tools to make accurate observations of the natural phenomena they were seeing. Our natural curiosity drove people to look for answers, but without the aforementioned tools, the best explainations they could come up with were just as mystical and unexplainable as the things they were trying to explain. "God/the gods did it" is, after all, much more satisfying than no answer at all.
Only now that we have the tools to begin finding the real answers, religion, the remnant of our ignorant past, clings to life and seems to drag us down as a species, more often than it lifts us up. It's like the appendix of the mind: obsolete, useless, and extremely dangerous when it becomes inflamed.
Naw, religious people aren't stupid, they're just ignorant fools. Just because people put more faith in a higher power than a scientific theory that is after all, a theory, does not mean they blatantly disregard any and all scientific discoveries. I thought I was allowed to be religious and intellectual, but maybe I'm just ignorant too eh? I wasn't aware religion and science had to oppose each other. I love science, I think it's fascinating and my favorite thing to listen to on the radio is npr's science Friday.
Perhaps you could direct me to the scientific research that proves a higher power cannot exist? Or the evidence that proves religion is "enforced ignorance" from research that is representative of the global population and not just some odd westboro-esque case study. In my personal experiences I have yet to come across and science that disproves God or any religious reasons to ignore science.
As they say, absence of proof is not proof of absence. Just because you can't understand how something works doesn't mean it can't exist, or that people who believe in such things are inherently foolish.
On a more positive but less related note, I think it's rather fascinating when science shows us an explanation for some of the 'miracles' in religion. I saw an interesting little bit where, under the right circumstances, the Red Sea becomes shallow enough to reveal a strip of land for a little while (thus parting the red sea). This natural phenomena does not diminish the 'miracle' in my opinion, it actually lends a little empirical support to some religious stories.
I personally believe faith is a wonderful
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