Investigating the Death of 'Agent Dubson'
POSTED BY: TheSomnambulist
UPDATED: Friday, October 15, 2010 23:25
VIEWED: 18428
PAGE 11 of 14
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Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:Could be that his failure (and death/disappearance) in a non-Parliament-sanctioned black bag op resulted in the permanent dumping of all info on the mission to keep things simple.
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
And when the crew are questioned during Bushwacked by the Alliance officer should there not have been mention that the last known where abouts of Agent Dobson was aboard a Firefly class ship....?
Hands of Blue were not a black op. Hands of Blue along with Alliance was before BDM. When they failed, the recapture job was transferred to The Operative, who was black ops.
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Be like trying to discuss original Star Trek without saying that Kirk defeated the Gorn...
DAMMIT, MAN - I HADN'T SEEN THAT ONE YET!!!
[j/k]
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Quote:How little you understand clandestine workings....
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Hands of Blue were not a black op.
The laughing Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:How little you understand clandestine workings....
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Hands of Blue were not a black op.
How little you understand the difference between Firefly the series and Serenity the movie.
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Quote:How little you grok of the workings of Joss, the God of this 'Verse.
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:How little you understand clandestine workings....
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Hands of Blue were not a black op.
How little you understand the difference between Firefly the series and Serenity the movie.
The laughing Chrisisall
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Gee.... I believe you accused me of employing straw men arguments. Pot, kettle, etc....
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Yes, you are really convincing me that this isn't emotional.
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I'm not questioning your intentions. Nor was I trying to make you feel bad. [...] I'm genuinely not trying to upset you
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A) Life sure as hell does pull surprises once in a while, often deadly ones.
B) "Most" people don't deal with hordes of Reavers, and angry alliance troops on their tail, amongst other things. Our crew doesn't live a "normal" life.
But for those who do live lives with that level of danger - yeah, sometimes they do die unexpectedly. And I'd wager that those around them, feel a wee bit more tension for it.
And I never said people don't die in real life. I pointed out that I'm fine with war movies were lots of people die. What I said was people in real life do not die to increase the dramatic tension, not unless you believe there's a higher narrator or author who is writing the lives/stories of the people involved, or a cosmic audience that higher author is trying to shock. This is not a realistic use of death, possibly not even a realistic portrayal of death. It isn't true to real life or the emotions of the audience OR the characters involved.
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but while I am trying to look at the choices Joss made as a writer and director, and WHY he made them, you seem to only want to look at how it effected you and other people - which is a valid topic and worth discussing - but it IS an emotional one, and not really on the topic of storytelling choices we started with.
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1) It seems like Joss Whedon is having trouble writing more Firefly because he now regrets killing Wash off.
Wash living has a direct storytelling result in that Joss Whedon still has an Author Avatar character and would want to keep writing Firefly.
2) Wash dying did not have a story purpose, it did not further the story line in any way, as it wasn't part of any sort of plot development. It did potentially have an effect on the MOOD OF THE SCENE, but at the possible detriment of the further storyline (see #1 above).
The effect on the mood for some people (myself) however, was minimal, which made the sacrifice of further storylines not worth it. Arguably, even if the mood had been sufficiently affected, the sacrifice would STILL not be worth it.
Are you really trying to claim that when I'm talking about how Wash's death effects the possible continuation of the franchise, that I'm really talking about how it effects us all emotionally?
Please stop trying to attach meanings that I did not intend to the things that I am saying. This is straightforward and not complicated, as much as you're trying to make it be. "No more Firefly" is a possible failure state of the scenario that I proposed. It is a possible cause and effect that I clearly demarcated and outlined.
Now. You have repeatedly claimed that my arguments come from an emotional standpoint. A few posts ago, you took one of my comments completely out of context to twist it into "evidence" that because I'm being emotional, therefore my argument itself has an emotional basis. You conflate my being angry and annoyed with you for insulting me with me being angry and upset that Wash died, despite my claims otherwise.
For the record, I did not cry when Wash died, as I did not know Wash from the series. I still am somewhat ambivalent to his death, as I think there are far more important and interesting storylines to explore. My continuing argument relates to my observation that Wash dying seems to possibly have lead to a problem with the continuation of the franchise.
Finally, you are unwilling to concede my arguments might even have the slightest logical basis, but that you just don't agree with my conclusions. I would be satisfied with just this much, but I don't think there's anything I can say at this point that you would be willing to take as a non-emotional argument, because this is simply what you want to see. I have my suspicions on WHY that is, but out of politeness I won't elaborate.
I'd be willing to consider this a misunderstanding on your part, except in nearly every post you have made to me in this thread, you've a clear effort (and sometimes it has REALLY been an effort) to paint me as just being emotional, so all my argumen
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Bytemite is nuanced. Me, I'm crude in my objections to how Joss revised his script when he jammed Wash's death into it.
In Joss's first version of the script, where Wash lives:
1) Serenity is facing the direction of the Reavers when the crash ends.
2) Wash says his “I'm a leaf on the Wind” catchphrase.
3) Crew see the Reavers arrive.
4) Crew & Wash run away in terror.
It makes perfect sense. Good job, Joss!
In the second version Joss wrote, where Wash dies, everything is same except:
3) Crew see nothing. Nothing at all!
It is not believable that Mal and Zoe are oblivious to the arrival of Reavers. Is Mal's memory so short that he has forgotten the Reavers? But that's the way Joss faked it so that Wash's death is a big surprise that none saw coming.
Joss Whedon did not sufficiently revise the script when he decided to kill Wash. In plain English, Joss did a half-ass job. Movies are industrial products and killing Wash this particular way was one of the mistakes Joss made in the "engineering" design of Serenity.
The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two
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Bytemite is nuanced.
I thought I was more of a broad.
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Joss gave X-Man Wolverine's mutant healing power to Jayne. Joss wrote Astonishing X-Men No. 1 (July, 2004) about the same time as Serenity. Some ways Joss made Jayne a mutant like Wolverine: a) Jayne is harpooned, yet hardly bleeds. b) The Reavers pull hard on the harpoon, yet Jayne's leg doesn't rip open. c) Jayne removes the harpoon without any help. d) Jayne drank whiskey and healed, while Wolverine drank beer and healed.
It was plainly wrong for Joss to give Jayne mutant healing powers. And this is not the only mistake he made.
The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two
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