Investigating the Death of 'Agent Dubson'

POSTED BY: TheSomnambulist
UPDATED: Friday, October 15, 2010 23:25
VIEWED: 18428
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STORYMARK

Wednesday, October 13, 2010 10:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
So that brings up a new topic, and probably just in time! Do you think Joss is going to have psychic River seeing and talking to Ghost Wash and Book? Maybe they can still stick around!

After all, there might be something implied in Bushwhacked ("Ghosts.") and on Miranda ("I can hear them and they're all saying NOTHING!") that River might be able to do something like this. And we'll never know if it's her powers or if she's just crazy. I think that would be great.

Personally I really hope not. I think that would basically only be fan service. It's also a plot hole nightmare because you can't have every actor who ever played a fan favorite character live on in River's head. I mean when does it stop?

Absolutely agree on all points. Would be a terrible idea just to placate a certain set of the fanbase.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

TWO

Wednesday, October 13, 2010 10:31 PM

For the record, because nobody will download the screenplay.

This is the version where Wash lives from the 190 pages screenplay. www.fileden.com/files/2008/8/13/2048723/Serenity-190pages.pdf

Quote:
EXT. LANDING STRIP - CONTINUING
And Serenity HITS the ground, moving forward in what would be a perfect 747 landing if, like a 747, this ship had wheels. As it is, it's insanely jolting -- the landing gear folds and snaps under the weight -- the ship keeps going, now inside the hanger, heading towards the entrance to the facility, slowing, sparks shooting out behind it, slowing, fishtailing and coming about a full one eighty as it stops a very few feet from the wall.
INT. BRIDGE - CONTINUING
There is a moment of quiet.
WASH: I am a leaf in the wind. Watch --
And the ROAR and light of the Hunter setting down at the entrance shuts him up.
EXT. LANDING STRIP - CONTINUING
We see the ship about to touch down, engines folding in like an egret's wings. A second Reaver vessel enters frame from above, about to land next to it.
EXT. INT. SERENITY - MOMENTS LATER
The inner doors open and the entire crew piles out, all heavily bedecked with weapons.

This is where Wash dies from the 126 pages screenplay. www.fileden.com/files/2008/8/13/2048723/Serenity-126pages.pdf

Quote:
EXT./INT. LANDING STRIP/HANGER - CONTINUING
And Serenity HITS the ground -- the landing gear folds and snaps under the weight -- the ship keeps going, now inside the hanger, heading towards the entrance to the facility, slowing, fishtailing and coming about a full one eighty -- it goes beyond the strip and crashes down into the pedestrian area, so that the nose is sticking back out at the runway but the body of the ship is hidden from it.
INT. BRIDGE - CONTINUING
There is a moment of quiet.
WASH: I am a leaf on the wind. Watch --
A massive harpoon CRASHES through the windshield and impales him to his chair. It's as thick around as a telephone pole. Wash has time to open his mouth in surprise before he is dead.
ZOE: WASH! (She moves to him) –Wash baby baby no, come on, you gotta move you gotta move baby please --
Mal rips her away and to the floor as another projectile slams through the window into the wall above them.
EXT. LANDING STRIP - CONTINUING
We see the ship that has fired the harpoons as Reavers start out of it. A second Reaver vessel enters frame from above, about to land next to it.
EXT. SERENITY - MOMENTS LATER
The cargo bay door opens -- just the little door housed inside the ramp -- and Jayne comes out with his biggest gun. He looks up, toward the edge of the runway, but no Reavers have arrived yet.
JAYNE: Go!
The entire crew piles out, all heavily bedecked with weapons.

In the first version:
1) Serenity is facing the direction of the Reavers when the crash ends.
2) “I'm a leaf on the Wind.”
3) Crew see the Reavers arrive.
4) Crew runs away in terror.
In the second version, everything is same except:
3) Crew see nothing. Nothing at all.
It is not believable that Mal and Zoe are oblivious to the arrival of Reavers. Is Mal's memory so short that he has forgotten the Reavers?

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

STORYMARK

Wednesday, October 13, 2010 10:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

Well, it's an assumption, I grant you, but assumptions aren't necessarily illogical. Not if there's reasons to back them up. You even agree that Joss seems to be mourning his characters still.

This could be a perfectly valid inference of how mourning is affecting Joss and writing after the movie. It might not be RIGHT, but that's not necessarily a domain of logic. In any case, it seems like a reasonable assessment to me.

It strikes me as what you want to be true, I'll grant.

Quote:

...That wasn't remotely the context of that comment. The sacrifice I was referring to was the possibility of no more Firefly.

Wash didn't really sacrifice himself, per se, as his death didn't accomplish anything besides dramatic tension.

And that dramatic tension served the purpose of making the film better - which to me, is a pretty important accomplishment.

Again, I'll reiterate - the "telling" part of storytelling isn't JUST about what happens. Increasing the tension is what a writer is supposed to do in the climax.

Quote:

See, and that's the thing. I'm totally okay with stories that kill off a lot of characters, like a war film. Even the important, named characters. What I'm specifically looking at is the trope where a character death is used seemingly ONLY to ramp up dramatic tension. As a storytelling method, it seems like a waste, and not as effective as it could be. It almost feels like resorting to a trick when the situation should be scary enough as it is. It feels... untrue or unfaithful, somehow, in a storytelling sense.

And I feel the exact opposite. The idea that characters can get into so many tight situations without ever having do face death strikes me as total BS, and removes me from the story. I'm not interested in a static status quo.

Quote:
It's almost better to have a death scene that's thoroughly apathetic about it, than it is to just shock people. Real life doesn't go "Surprise! Now one of you dies so the audience is more worried" for most people.

A) Life sure as hell does pull surprises once in a while, often deadly ones.

B) "Most" people don't deal with hordes of Reavers, and angry alliance troops on their tail, amongst other things. Our crew doesn't live a "normal" life.

But for those who do live lives with that level of danger - yeah, sometimes they do die unexpectedly. And I'd wager that those around them, feel a wee bit more tension for it.

Quote:
So that brings up a new topic, and probably just in time! Do you think Joss is going to have psychic River seeing and talking to Ghost Wash and Book? Maybe they can still stick around!

After all, there might be something implied in Bushwhacked ("Ghosts.") and on Miranda ("I can hear them and they're all saying NOTHING!") that River might be able to do something like this. And we'll never know if it's her powers or if she's just crazy. I think that would be great.

See, it's stuff like this that makes it hard to believe you're looking at this as objectively as you claim. Its not about being upset that he killed beloved character.... but golly gee, wouldn't it be nice if he could bring them back? It stuff like that that makes it seem like you're really arguing from a purely emotional perspective.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

STORYMARK

Wednesday, October 13, 2010 10:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by two:
For the record, because nobody will download the screenplay.

You seem to think that not agreeing with you means we didn't read it.

This is incorrect.

In the longer draft, yes, Wash lived. But he really served no purpose from there. His death did serves a purpose, as has been discussed.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, October 13, 2010 10:48 PM

Quote:
See, it's stuff like this that makes it hard to believe you're looking at this as objectively as you claim. Its not about being upset that he killed beloved character.... but golly gee, wouldn't it be nice if he could bring them back? It stuff like that that makes it seem like you're really arguing from a purely emotional perspective.

You ever think there might be people who WERE affected by Wash dying, and maybe I'm trying to be nice to them? What I suggested I thought maybe could be the best of both worlds. Wash is still dead, who even knows if it's real, but Alan Tudyk fans are appeased. It's a possible way for Joss to write Wash, if that's something he still wants to do. Maybe it's not. Maybe he's tired of this whole damn thing and cheering up us nerds with false hope.

Christ. And maybe I'm NOT lying my ass off and disingenuous about my feelings, okay? It's really insulting that you keep going here. What have I done to warrant so much freaking mistrust?

Do I have to tap dance on Wash's grave? Distribute sharpened pencils or something? Seriously. You don't see me questioning your intentions, do you? Yeah, make me feel bad about offending people, but you don't care about the other side.

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, October 13, 2010 10:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
The idea that characters can get into so many tight situations without ever having do face death strikes me as total BS, and removes me from the story. I'm not interested in a static status quo.

"So, you never have faced death."
"No. Not like this."

Only in Joss' 'Verse, it's permanent.

Bringing Spock back would have felt like a cheat, if it had happened suddenly or had no lasting effects upon his character in the future.

"I've been dead before."

I cried when Spock died, but I REALLY cried when Wash died. Like when my Mom died. There ain't no commin' back. In the really real 'Verse, anyway.

Just sayin'.

The laughing Chrisisall

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, October 13, 2010 10:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

Christ. Maybe I'm NOT lying my ass off and disingenuous about my feelings, okay? It's really insulting that you keep going here.

Okay, maybe I watch Star Trek too much, but I feel like I'm witnessing an argument between McCoy & Spock here...

"You green-blooded, inhuman..."

The laughing Chrisisall

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, October 13, 2010 11:03 PM

*Raise hands in frustration*

Fine. Whatever. I don't know my own feelings. Clearly my fanfiction I've been writing for two years where Wash was very certainly most absolutely dead and I wasn't even going to have Zoe be pregnant because I thought it was "too happy" and "Joss would never go for that" and had to throw it in last minute when Float Out came out is all a big fucking lie.

I'm going to go suck a lolipop now, and then maybe someone can change my diapers.

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, October 13, 2010 11:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

Fine. Whatever. I don't know my own feelings.

Byte, seriously, no one is saying that.
No one besides Jayne is saying that.
(sorry, couldn't resist- I'm a bad man)

I *think* you're being too sensitive- we all love you as a fellow Browncoat, Storymark as well. Hell, we're all in Serenity Valley here, right?

The laughing Chrisisall

STORYMARK

Thursday, October 14, 2010 12:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

You ever think there might be people who WERE affected by Wash dying,

Sure. Hell, I'm one of them. It HURT to see him die. That doesn't mean I think it was a bad storytelling choice, nor does it make me incapable of discussing it objectively.

Quote:
and maybe I'm trying to be nice to them? What I suggested I thought maybe could be the best of both worlds. Wash is still dead, who even knows if it's real, but Alan Tudyk fans are appeased. It's a possible way for Joss to write Wash, if that's something he still wants to do. Maybe it's not. Maybe he's tired of this whole damn thing and cheering up us nerds with false hope.

Sounds like bad storytelling to me, creating scenarios that are inconsistent with the established 'verse, just to satisfy the (I know, you hate the word) emotional desires of some fans.

Quote:
Christ. And maybe I'm NOT lying my ass off and disingenuous about my feelings, okay? It's really insulting that you keep going here. What have I done to warrant so much freaking mistrust?

I'm not saying you're lying. But I do question your objectivity, yes. Sorry that upsets you. But no matter how many times you say it's not an emotional issue, when most of your points boil down to emotion, it's hard to miss. It's not mistrust, it's observation.

Quote:
Do I have to tap dance on Wash's grave? Distribute sharpened pencils or something?

Gee.... I believe you accused me of employing straw men arguments. Pot, kettle, etc....

Quote:
Seriously. You don't see me questioning your intentions, do you? Yeah, make me feel bad about offending people, but you don't care about the other side.

Yes, you are really convincing me that this isn't emotional.

I'm not questioning your intentions. Nor was I trying to make you feel bad. And other side of what? I'm looking at the story, and the storytelling behind the choices, from an analytical perspective, and trying to be objective.

I'm genuinely not trying to upset you, but while I am trying to look at the choices Joss made as a writer and director, and WHY he made them, you seem to only want to look at how it effected you and other people - which is a valid topic and worth discussing - but it IS an emotional one, and not really on the topic of storytelling choices we started with.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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