Investigating the Death of 'Agent Dubson'
POSTED BY: TheSomnambulist
UPDATED: Friday, October 15, 2010 23:25
VIEWED: 18428
PAGE 8 of 14
Quote:No, I'M sorry, my post was a little full of itself.
Originally posted by Bytemite:
(but was also snark - Sorry Chris)
I apologize.
The laughing Chrisisall
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Quote:I'm not ashamed to say I had a couple of tears running down my face feeling like it was the end for all of them...*sniff*
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
At one point I honestly thought they might all die!
Except, y'know, Jayne.
The laughing Chrisisall
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Quote:
I made it all about one point.... by pointing out there were others.
You made the accusation I was dismissing all other valid viewpoints and not addressing the arguments so I could claim some sort of I Win button.
You've called me disingenuous, and childish, and immature. I'm going to defend myself. That's how a forum works.
Quote:
As I've said, I see nothing that doesn't boil down to "I didn't want him to die".
You know, I'm just going to keep quoting my points that distinctly aren't OH NO WHY DID HE HAVE TO DIE until you actually read them. Until you're actually willing to treat me like a human being, and not a brick wall, this conversation isn't going anywhere.
Quote:
My dislike of the use of the Anyone Can Die trope is broader than this one case, but in this case I have two specific objections.
1) It seems like Joss Whedon is having trouble writing more Firefly because he now regrets killing Wash off.
Wash living has a direct storytelling result in that Joss Whedon still has an Author Avatar character and would want to keep writing Firefly.
2) Wash dying did not have a story purpose, it did not further the story line in any way, as it wasn't part of any sort of plot development. It did potentially have an effect on the MOOD OF THE SCENE, but at the possible detriment of the further storyline (see #1 above).
The effect on the mood for some people (myself) however, was minimal, which made the sacrifice of further storylines not worth it. Arguably, even if the mood had been sufficiently affected, the sacrifice would STILL not be worth it.
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Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
I wasn't a fan of bringing him back myself. In my mind, Mal ended him with that shot.
That's how I feel, and that episode and MAL as a character work better for me if he did go and shoot the agent dead!
Cartoons - http://cirqusartsandmusic.blogspot.com
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Quote:After the crash, Mal and Zoe are acting like they have been in a fender bender on Hollywood Blvd. Keep your seat belt on, check your hair, adjust your clothes. Real soldiers would be yelling, “Where are the Reavers!!! Where are they!!!” Real soldiers would be hyper-alert to what is going on around them. Who knows? They might even look out the window because Reavers are trying to kill them NOW. And then the Reavers do kill Wash.
Originally posted by Storymark:
Just rewatched the scene to check, not only are none of them facing the window/Reavers as you say (Wash looking downward, then behind, Mal and Zoe looking at each other and Wash - none of them looking out the window), they are IN THE DARK. They were inside that larger hanger, with no lights on. So, not only was no one paying attention, it was hard to see. And the log comes in, a wee bit fast.
And the log/spike/whatever comes in from a distinctly UPWARD angle, thus indicating that the Reaver ship was above, and not directly in front as some want to claim.
So sure, they could have maybe seen it, if they hadn't been slightly distracted by almost crashing to death, had better lighting, knew exactly when to look, where to look, and had the Reaver ship had running lights (because as we know, they're all about safety).
But making Zoe and Mal act like real soldiers would make it impossible to hear Wash say, "I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch . . ." Maybe Joss wanted to show that Zoe and Mal had lost their alertness/edge and got fat and placid like Oklahomans who have a traffic accident while gawking at Grauman's Chinese Theatre on Hollywood Blve.
The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two
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Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
I'm not ashamed to say I had a couple of tears running down my face feeling like it was the end for all of them...*sniff*
Except, y'know, Jayne.
I had a flashback of when I was a kid and I saw the last ever episode of BLAKES 7 (you ever see that?) I thought Joss was going to draw from that... Very glad he didn't. I just was never the same after Blakes 7!!!
Cartoons - http://cirqusartsandmusic.blogspot.com
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:No, I'M sorry, my post was a little full of itself.
Originally posted by Bytemite:
(but was also snark - Sorry Chris)
I apologize.
No, mine was too. The snark about the true fans and heretic was uncalled for.
I did expect to catch a lot of flak for saying what I've been saying. I do know that I'm playing the heretic/devil's advocate here. I know what I think is unpopular.
I was trying to make it in the sense of you guys are truer fans for being more supportive of Joss' vision on this point, because I know I'm not being very supportive on this topic. I was aware of that when I wrote that, I know I'm being (overly) critical. But by saying "true fans," that takes it somewhere that the argument isn't just us all discussing, there's a zealotry I implied that wasn't fair.
Also, Storymark is right in that if I'm playing devil's advocate, I need to buck up. I expected getting piled on from the start here. And if I wanted to get out of the argument with a agree to disagree, I could have been less inflammatory about doing so. Frustration of the moment.
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Quote:I don't know about anyone else here, but Serenity is my favourite movie of ALL TIME. That can make some folks a little twitchy when that view is put in question. Me- I try to realize that when in a discussion... lest I'm trying to get a firey rise out of peeps, which I do admit to attempting now & then...
Originally posted by Bytemite:
I expected getting piled on from the start here. And if I wanted to get out of the argument with a agree to disagree, I could have been less inflammatory about doing so. Frustration of the moment.
The laughing Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by two:
After the crash, Mal and Zoe are acting like they have been in a fender bender on Hollywood Blvd. Keep your seat belt on, check your hair, adjust your clothes. Real soldiers would be yelling, “Where are the Reavers!!! Where are they!!!” Real soldiers would be hyper-alert to what is going on around them. Who knows? They might even look out the window because Reavers are trying to kill them NOW. And then the Reavers do kill Wash.
But making Zoe and Mal act like real soldiers would make it impossible to hear Wash say, "I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch . . ." Maybe Joss wanted to show that Zoe and Mal had lost their alertness/edge and got fat and placid like Oklahomans who have a traffic accident while gawking at Grauman's Chinese Theatre on Hollywood Blve.
Or... maybe they were just in a huge spaceship crash....
But far be it from me to question your expertise when it comes to the behavior of space soldiers after sucha common crash.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Quote:Last time MY spaceship crashed on a distant moon, my first thought was "Crap- I hope there's oxygen here..."
Originally posted by Storymark:
But far be it from me to question your expertise when it comes to the behavior of space soldiers after sucha common crash.
The laughing Chrisisall
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