Investigating the Death of 'Agent Dubson'
POSTED BY: TheSomnambulist
UPDATED: Friday, October 15, 2010 23:25
VIEWED: 18428
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I don't see this as a "true Joss fan" thing. We just disagree. You think killing Wash didn't work. Others think it worked really well. What's left to discuss?
Accurate.
I was the heretic, BTW. You guys probably are closer to being true fans simply because you're not as bothered by this as I am. :)
It's just kind of a pet peeve trope of mine, you know, "Anyone Can Die! - under a series of conspired circumstances where they could in fact either live or die and which one or two of them dying probably won't have any effect on the outcome."
Blah. Just bothers me, you see.
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JK- it all comes down to the individual. I hate that Wash died, but I still love Serenity. I can see why those that wanted Wash to live, for emotional, or storytelling reasons have their opinions. And mostly, I respect them. But it's Joss' 'Verse.
Yeah, I know.
In the very least, there seems to be a Someone To Remember Him By plot development coming out of this, but I'd really have liked to see the baby question have a longer run, and for something surprising to come out of Wash's backstory before he was killed. Alliance pilot who flew a few missions in the war, maybe? Oh well.
I'm almost wondering if Float Out was suggesting Wash once flew as a pilot for the Blue Sun Corporation! Now that could have some posthumous ramifications.
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Quote:Yeah,
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Blah. Just bothers me, you see.
I used to call it "The Shakespeare Syndrome."
If you need to give meaning to your story, kill off people.
And in lesser works, I still find it annoying.
But Joss doesn't just go, "Let's kill ___!"
He feels the pain. I hear tell he actually cried as he wrote Wash's death.
The laughing Chrisisall
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Originally posted by Bytemite:
I see people are going to continue trying to mischaracterize me as "trying to tell Joss what to do" rather than me just trying to have a discussion about the effectiveness of Wash's death.
Uh, there have been plenty of points made as to why people think it works, and very few have anything to do with telling Joss what to do.
You seem a wee bit disingenuous there.
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Also that the battlelines are being drawn with the true Joss fans amassing to attack the evil heretic. I suppose it is definitely time to agree to disagree.
Um.... okay. I'd say you are imagining things, but whatever.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Originally posted by Bytemite:
It's just kind of a pet peeve trope of mine, you know, "Anyone Can Die! - under a series of conspired circumstances where they could in fact either live or die and which one or two of them dying probably won't have any effect on the outcome."
How is that different than "Everyone lives, even though they're being pursued by ruthless, virtually unstoppable killers on two sides, where logically, they'd be lucky if ANY of them lived, and not dying has no effect on the greater storyline".
I still don't see how it's any more than emotional. You didn't want him to die, cool.
but his dying did serve a story purpose, even if you didn't care for it. His living, would have served no direct story purpose, other than to not make some folks sad.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Originally posted by Storymark:
logically, they'd be lucky if ANY of them lived,
Well, Jayne might have...
The laughing Chrisisall
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Originally posted by two:Quote:I've got to be rude about Joss' skill in setting a scene.
Originally posted by Bytemite:
We are not discussing Joss Whedon's skill, he clearly has it, and I, at least, am not arguing that Joss Whedon should compromise his artistic vision and principles by being less angsty. I am discussing specifically whether Wash's death at this point was useful in terms of the storyline. Seeing as Joss Whedon has indirectly indicated he would like to keep writing stories where Wash is still around... *shrug* It doesn't seem like it to me.
Nobody noticed since we've never been shot by a firing squad, but Wash's death was random bullshit because Wash was looking straight out the window at the Reaver ship. He could see the projectile coming! The Reaver ship was big as a house and in his face! How could Wash not see!? Because Joss wouldn't let him look.
In the mechanics of Wash's death, it's obvious Joss just did not think it through. Quick fix: turn Serenity sideways to the Reavers then Wash couldn't see death coming straight at his head. Serenity was computer graphics - Joss could do it, if he had planned ahead. I guess that Joss thinks it is sufficient to place the movie camera where only the audience can't see the Reavers.
The Reavers were aiming at him and firing a projectile with no course correcting capabilities. It pretty much had to be a straight shot. If Wash couldn't see them then they couldn't see Wash and it would have been a random shot that just happened to hit the pilot dead in the chest. That seems much worse than just having Wash strapped in and unable to react in time.
Basically I think by the time the shot was fired it was too late. I think he turned his head anyway IIRC. He probably didn't even see the shot.
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And he was distracted. Having just performed the most difficult landing ever, he likely wasn't instantly looking for the next threat - and was indeed patting himself on the back when the shot happened.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Quote:There was 3 pairs of eyes in the cockpit, all facing the Reavers. Wash not seeing? Okay, have it your way. Mal or Zoe could have seen the Reavers if only Joss hadn't made them blind to what was happening outside the window. If the Reaver's wooden projectile can get into the window then Zoe or Mal can see it coming. Unless you assume the projectile made a 90 degree turn in mid-air and seemed to come out of nowhere.
Originally posted by Zeek:
The Reavers were aiming at him and firing a projectile with no course correcting capabilities. It pretty much had to be a straight shot. If Wash couldn't see them then they couldn't see Wash and it would have been a random shot that just happened to hit the pilot dead in the chest. That seems much worse than just having Wash strapped in and unable to react in time.
Basically I think by the time the shot was fired it was too late. I think he turned his head anyway IIRC. He probably didn't even see the shot.
The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two
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Originally posted by two:Quote:There was 3 pairs of eyes in the cockpit, all facing the Reavers. Wash not seeing? Okay, have it your way. Mal or Zoe could have seen the Reavers if only Joss hadn't made them blind to what was happening outside the window. If the Reaver's wooden projectile can get into the window then Zoe or Mal can see it coming. Unless you assume the projectile made a 90 degree turn in mid-air and seemed to come out of nowhere.
Originally posted by Zeek:
The Reavers were aiming at him and firing a projectile with no course correcting capabilities. It pretty much had to be a straight shot. If Wash couldn't see them then they couldn't see Wash and it would have been a random shot that just happened to hit the pilot dead in the chest. That seems much worse than just having Wash strapped in and unable to react in time.
Basically I think by the time the shot was fired it was too late. I think he turned his head anyway IIRC. He probably didn't even see the shot.
Just rewatched the scene to check, not only are none of them facing the window/Reavers as you say (Wash looking downward, then behind, Mal and Zoe looking at each other and Wash - none of them looking out the window), they are IN THE DARK. They were inside that larger hanger, with no lights on. So, not only was no one paying attention, it was hard to see. And the log comes in, a wee bit fast.
And the log/spike/whatever comes in from a distinctly UPWARD angle, thus indicating that the Reaver ship was above, and not directly in front as some want to claim.
So sure, they could have maybe seen it, if they hadn't been slightly distracted by almost crashing to death, had better lighting, knew exactly when to look, where to look, and had the Reaver ship had running lights (because as we know, they're all about safety).
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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