Ariel - and Mal's forgiveness

POSTED BY: TauSetiPrime
UPDATED: Monday, August 2, 2004 02:19
VIEWED: 23705
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EVILTOBZ

Tuesday, July 20, 2004 10:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Talonpest:
The one thing that's always bothered me about the line "If I ever kill you, you'll be awake, you'll be facing me, and you'll be armed" is that in the very next episode Mal kicks Krowl (or Crow, or whatever Niska's thug's name was) into the engine while he's unarmed and has his hands bound. So yeah, I think it only applies to Simon.

i'd take that line a little less literally than that myself. i see it more as an implication that for mal to choose to kill someone they would have had to oppose him pretty strongly and would know it was coming. jayne didn't know that mal had figured out what had happened, but he knew that mal wouldn't take it good, so he knows its coming enough, same with kicking yon crow bloke through the engine.

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eviltobz - that's lowercase gorram it!

KATI

Tuesday, July 20, 2004 11:15 AM

LIZ wrote “i give up. i believe that Mal had good reason to leave Jayne w/Simon and River, and that he was ready to kill Jayne for the betrayal. My reasoning: 'cuz. “

@LIZ – Never give up, never surrender (I love that quote!*g*) – your last reason is one of the greatest ever. :-) It’s just my humble opinion, I just thought that it would have been much more “smooth” (for Mal, not for us…) if Mal had decided to do this job in another way. Ariel is one of my favourite eps, and I’m sure it wasn’t if it had taken another path, really. But playing with all these “coulda-shoulda-wouldas” is such a wonderful wasting of lifetime. *g*

@MER: You said: “Jayne isn't intirely bad. He does things for the money only because he has a family to help support. He doesn't give a care to anybody (except maybe Kaylee) and I can't wait to find out the reason why.
Sometimes Jayne acts too Spikey...I swear O_O;;”

Oh, I never would say that I don’t like Jayne – he’s my beloved favourite funny dumbass. :-) I just try to *not* see him through my fangirlish pink glasses. I always think of this scene in Serenity when he so cares about Kaylee. And you’re right. He often reminds me of Spikey (without that “love’s bitch” thing). And I was so shocked as I watched Ariel for the first time, this moment as he called this Fed and said his “…then I’ll have your fugitives.” Oh my, that was more than a shock, it was a reason for a heartattack! (and this wrench-moment in the cargo bay *g*)

@STATIC: You wrote “Going back to the whole 'remorse/regret' thing. . .re-watch the episode. Adam Baldwin is an incredible actor. During the scene where Simon is explaining to Jayne what's been done to River, you begin to see even that early the 'oh shit. . .what have I done?' look on Jayne's face.”

OH YES! AB is such an underrated actor, and this scene where Simon is so excited about Jayne’s “saving their lives” and Mal’s “big pay day” is amazing, just for looking at AB’s face. It’s really a mix of “what have I done?” and his release like “uhhh… they didn’t find out”. That’s really fantastic!

@Soupcatcher: Very well said… just without that patriotic thingy, for my opinion, but I think it’s a special part of the Americans, and ‘cuz. ;) Thanks for sharing.

Time for some thrilling heroics.

SCOTTISHBROWNCOAT

Tuesday, July 20, 2004 11:51 AM

It reminds me of Shan Yu's Volcano theory;

Didn't Mal "Hold Jane over the Volcano" so to speak...And by Jayne saying "don't tell 'em what I did" His remorse shown while being "held over the Volcano" let Mal know about Jayne's true self.

BROWNCOAT1

Tuesday, July 20, 2004 4:53 PM

I agree w/ Liz. I think that the remorse Jayne felt & his asking Mal to "make something up" & "don't tell them what I done" is what convinced Mal to let Jayne stay on.

I think it will be a long time before Mal forgives Jayne for the betrayal or truly trusts him again.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

KIQUOA

Tuesday, July 20, 2004 5:24 PM

Mal is contridicting himself all the time.
"We're not theives... well, we are theives..."

Mal 'I don't run away from a fight.'
Inara "Yes you do, you run away all the time!"

I see it as the struggle between who Mal wants to be (the honerable hero who gives Jayne the shot at redemption or who would give Simon the chance to defend himself) and the man who reality forces him to be (a thief and the man who shows the better part of valor through discreation)

His scene with Jayne puts these two sides of Mal against each other. On the one hand he must defend his crew, on the other, Jayne IS part of his crew and deserves a second chance. I agree though that Jayne only gets his second chance when he shows remorse like others had pointed out.

RANGER

Tuesday, July 20, 2004 5:49 PM

Ok, here is my take. A lot of my ideas have already been said by others here, but I'll just through in a few thoughts of my own.

Mal is a guy that has seen enough death and destruction to value life to a very high degree. He is willing to kill Jayne for his actions, but he doesn't want to. The whole set up, puting the com set in the airlock with Jayne is Mal's hoping aginst hope that he won't have to actually do the deed.

This is a major event in Jayne's life as well (to put it mildly). The first time he's ever been over the volcano so to speak (great analogy by the way, never hit me until I read it here). Jayne is a big confident guy. He's faced death lots of times, but has always made it, and probably never really thought he could loose. Now, for probably the first time, he has to face it as a reality and he suddenly has to choose what matters most. His choice of his honor over everything else (don't tell 'em what I did) is probably as surprising to him as it is to Mal.

Mal only kills when he believes he has no other option. Jayne gave him enough to pull back.

As to the 'awake, facing me, and armed' comment, I think it just means he gives people a fighting chance. Crow had a fighting chance, he could have taken Mals deal and walked free, he chose not to.

Just my thoughts...

Traveller, if you go to Sparta, tell them you have seen us lying here as the Law commands.

SHINYSEVEN

Wednesday, July 21, 2004 12:13 AM

Whereas I think it's just another one of Mal's really mean practical jokes--it's cranking up a notch what he did to Simon in Serenity.

And, like Our Mrs. Reynolds or Shindig, if Mal is angry at someone who is not posing an immediate threat to his life, he's going to be right in there with a second-degree assault, but he isn't going to kill that person.

I think according to Mal's Sentencing Guidelines, Jayne (whose dependability has ALWAYS been an issue) deserved to be knocked cold with a wrench and get really scared, but it was fair and proportionate to leave it at that.

Besides, if he spaced Jayne, he'd have to get another "public relations" executive who would raise the same risks.

DARKJESTER

Wednesday, July 21, 2004 12:55 AM

Here's another thought on the matter - Mal didn't really see Simon as a threat. He could simply tell that Simon wouldn't ever blindside him. And he was re-assuring Simon that he (Mal) would never... well... kill him in his sleep.
Crow, on the other hand, was making it very clear that he would hunt Mal down and kill him however was NOT quickest and least painful. I think Mal will give you respect as a courtesy, until you prove to him that you don't deserve it.
And I believe that in "Ariel", when Mal let Jayne live, it was because Mal saw Jayne showing remorse. Yes, perhaps Mal was "holding him over a volcano", and he saw more (and better) than he expected.

MAL "You only gotta scare him."
JAYNE "Pain is scary..."

FEMALEJAYNE

Wednesday, July 21, 2004 2:28 AM

I'm going to say it was that Jayne planned on selling them out, changed his mind and then vocalized that he was sorry.

With Hope because love is nothing without hope.

MINDSEYE

Wednesday, July 21, 2004 3:06 AM

SCOTTISHBROWNCOAT, "hit the nail on the head" so to speak.

Shan Yu : "Live with a man forty
years. Share his house, his meals,
speak on every subject. Then tie
him up and hold him over the volcano's
edge, and on that day, you will
finally meet the man."

Mal held jayne over the volcano's edge and met the real Jayne that was hidden under his "Thug" exterior.

Freedom - Peace - Serenity

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