Mal Reynolds compared to Han Solo

POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Monday, August 30, 2010 19:38
VIEWED: 6737
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CHRISISALL

Monday, August 30, 2010 2:30 PM

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Originally posted by GWEK:
Chewie sacrifices himself to save his best friend's son.

Thanks for the spoiler.

jk.

Wasn't gonna read the one anyway. Star Wars is just a bit more fantasy than SF for me, and I don't like reality intruding too deeply into that realm.

The laughing Chrisisall

BYTEMITE

Monday, August 30, 2010 3:43 PM

Crapcakes, see, I tried to edit my previous post for clarity and because it was too freaking long, and people just end up using the long version anyway. Blah.

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People die pointlessly all the time, especially in warfare. People die due to friendly fire, or because the supply lines aren't what they should be, or because they wandered off in the wrong direction, or stepped with their left foot when they should have stepped with their right.

Of course. But the fundamental thing writers seem to forget is that what they're writing isn't real. The reason why fiction works is a Willing Suspension of Disbelief, because the audience wants to follow along to see something, feel something, and/or learn something.

So long as you don't break the rules of the universe you constructed, you're going to maintain that Willing Suspension of Disbelief. Trying to add some gritty reality when it's not already present in-universe doesn't actually reinforce this. Rather, it tends to take people out of the story. Point of fact:

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whereas Chewbacca's (in which he waves a defiant fist as a moon crashes into him) is poorly written. (Not "lazy", but poor).

See? Clearly this didn't work for you. You're far from alone in this. And I think I'm far from alone when I comment that Wash's death was fairly pointless.

Authors have a right to do whatever they want with their own story, but sudden character death is something the author does for themselves, because they're trying to be darkier and edgier (and of course, because true art is angsty). They don't do this for the audience, they sure don't do this for the story, and because they don't do it for the story, arguably it doesn't actually make the story any more real.

If something does nothing for a story, then I question it's usefulness as a literary device, and so thus why we are having this discussion. If you want to argue that Wash's death is going to be an important development point for Zoe, good, fine, I agree with you, but I dismiss any justification that Wash's death was good for the movie because "it's real now!" Not only is it overdone in writing, but it's a flawed approach.

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I will also assume that you are unfamiliar with marketing and franchising, or else you would understand how silly it is to suggest that it would be a GOOD idea to write books that focus on the likes of Unar Thul, Tycho Celchu, Danni Quee when you have Han, Luke, and Leia available. You need look no further than the anger and annoyance directed at the addition of Ahsoka Tano as a major character in the CLONE WARS saga to see this principle in play.

I'd say people are annoyed by Ahsoka Tano because she's a spunky teenager canon sue who is so perfect she can correct even her own far more experienced teachers. The problem isn't change of character focus from the regular characters, the problem is unnecessary character focus on a character most people find irritating. Also see Jar Jar Binks in Episode one, and how this was fixed in later material by punting Jar Jar to the sidelines. Your mileage my vary, of course, because there's some people who find Luke and Anakin whiny and overpowered, and think there's too much character focus on THEM.

There's a reason why the X-wing series are among the most popular of the original trilogy EU novels. It's mostly because the authors focused on characters other than Han, Luke, and Leia, because all characters eventually do get stale after a while. If they were writing the characters well in the first place, they wouldn't have to kill them off to generate interest for them.

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I'd like to say more, but I'm really at a loss for how to respond to the viewpoint that a death should be designed around making the audience say "Wasn't that a heartwrenching moment when this characted died so beautifully?"

So I suppose if Wash has been dressed prettier, his death would have been okay?!?

Now you're just twisting what I'm saying, and being fairly insulting about it too. *bonk*

Of course it's not oka

BYTEMITE

Monday, August 30, 2010 4:43 PM

On a lighter note, this is fun! I really like the idea you bring up here:

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I don't know that comparing Han Solo to Mal Reynolds is really fair because they're intended for different audiences.

While Mal and Han make an interesting (and pretty obvious) comparision, how about Inara and Leia? I mean, sure, Whedon's original intention was that Inara would be a rough and tumble whore, but the end result of the Mal-Inara dynamic is basically a more nuanced, more "adult" version of the Han-Leia dynamic.

I could see that argument, about Mal and Han. Han really is for a more children appropriate audience. (And the prequel movies took the child friendly idea to eleven)

Your Inara and Princess Leia comparison is also interesting. My feeling is not only were these two intended for different audiences, but depending on how you look at them, they're also potentially different character types.

Princess Leia is a diplomat in a Triumph story with some action girl underneath. Rough and tumble is right, she can be indescriminantly snappish, scathing, or snarky to friends or foes alike.

Inara is a more straight forward diplomat in a Tragedy story. She might be capable of some action, but just on a personality level I'd say she's not quite as rough and tumble as Leia is. She'll find her way out of a situation, but generally with somewhat less violence and bluster, and she also tends to be more demure, except towards her annoying romantic interest.

Inara probably isn't quite as complex a character as Leia is, but there's other things to like, and you're right, the Mal/Inara relationship is a bit more nuanced than the Han/Leia relationship. The Han/Leia relationship is Haughty Girl/Rogue, Mal/Inara is that plus a heaping dose of hypocrisy and denial from both sides.

STORYMARK

Monday, August 30, 2010 5:12 PM

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
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Originally posted by Bytemite:

Plus, Han .... went to Stormtrooper Academy, then skipped out when he happened to be guarding a group of wookie slaves and felt sorry for them.

Get ready for fan complication here: IS THAT CANNON??????

The laughing Chrisisall

The official line with EU stuff is it that it is Canon unless George decides to do something else.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

STORYMARK

Monday, August 30, 2010 5:17 PM

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Originally posted by Bytemite:

Authors have a right to do whatever they want with their own story, but sudden character death is something the author does for themselves, because they're trying to be darkier and edgier (and of course, because true art is angsty). They don't do this for the audience, they sure don't do this for the story, and because they don't do it for the story, arguably it doesn't actually make the story any more real.

I'd wager a majority of working writers (and many audience members) would disagree quite strongly.

Yes, death can and often does serve a story - it's asinine to say it cannot, and is ONLY for the author's benefit.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

CHRISISALL

Monday, August 30, 2010 5:20 PM

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Originally posted by Storymark:

The official line with EU stuff is it that it is Canon unless George decides to do something else.

LOL!!!!

The laughing Chrisisall

CHRISISALL

Monday, August 30, 2010 5:25 PM

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Originally posted by Storymark:

Yes, death can and often does serve a story

I hate that Wash died, but the 'Verse & characters were so real to me that I can't deny it's impact or out-of-left-field real-life feel. I've never lost anyone in my life where the loss didn't seem senseless.

The laughing Chrisisall

CYBERSNARK

Monday, August 30, 2010 5:37 PM

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
...Why was he even guarding wookie slaves if it wasn't stormtrooper academy? Are you sure that wasn't Tycho Celchu? He was Imperial Navy and a TIE fighter pilot.

EDIT: Huh. You're right. Weird. What's up with the wookie slave thing?

I think the current version (or at least a "Tales" version that may or may not be accurate) was that he refused an order to scuttle a seemingly-abandoned slave ship. Instead he went aboard and found Chewbacca (IIRC the rest of the slaves had already escaped).

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
Okay... A.C. Crispin's? Brian Daley's?
Both? Others? Help me out, Cy.

Crispin's trilogy tells a more complete story (and fits better with things we learn about later [ex-girlfriends, the Kessel Run, winning the Falcon, etc]), and they work more as a continuity-laden prequel (so-to-speak) to the OT --they end with Han walking into Chalmun's cantina on Tatooine, looking for work.

Daley's are classic --some of the oldest EU novels out there, before the term "Expanded Universe" meant anything. They're deliberately self-contained stories featuring just Han, Chewie, the Falcon, and some fellow scoundrels in a part of the galaxy far removed from the Empire itself.

(And yes, they both fit together; Crispin's trilogy has a bunch of time-skips where the Daley adventures can be slotted in.)

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
Trying to add some gritty reality when it's not already present in-universe doesn't actually reinforce this.

The destruction of Alderaan, the massacre at Hoth, Han Solo's torture at Cloud City, the corruption of Anakin Skywalker, the shabla Jedi Purge --there is plenty of gritty darkness in Star Wars and always has been.

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I'd say people are annoyed by Ahsoka Tano because she's a spunky teenager canon sue who is so perfect she can correct even her own far more experienced teachers.

Based on what I've seen at different forums, you're in the minority. Ahsoka is one of the most loved characters in the series --she's not a proper and respectful Jedi Knight like all the other characters. Hell, if they weren't at war (and her Master wasn't the one Jedi in the order who'll put up with her), she probably would've been kicked into the Agricultural Corps by now. (And she rarely corrects her superiors; usually they're the ones who haul her shebs out of the fire after she screws up.)

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Of course it's not okay, death is sad, and not something you want to have happen to people you care about. But if they're going to die, you want them to die in a way they would have appreciated, or would have been fulfilling for them. You want to say, "that's how s/he would have wanted to go," or "at least s/he is at peace now," or "well, they died happy/ got what they wanted out of life."

I think I get what you're saying --more like Book's death, where he lasted just long enough to gasp out a final homily before dying in Mal's arms?

But isn't that itself a trope older than dirt? It only serves to emphasize the fact that we're watching something fictional, that is driven not by logic or rationality, but by the author blatantly reaching onto the screen and manipulating events to provide exposition. It breaks suspension of disbelief for most of us just as much as verisimilitude seems to do for you.

How unutterably boring would fiction be if all deaths had to be dressed up with operatic arias and choral monologues? Some of us like verisimilitude in our fiction.

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And so yes, I'm arguing that if there's going to be a main character death, it should 1) serve a purpose in furthering the story in order to have the greatest possible emotional impact, and 2) the emotional impact of a heroic death comes from catharsis, meaning the death should be a heroic sacrifice, or tragic, or poignant/beautiful.

And here's the crux of our disagreement; I don't feel that emotional impact comes only from catharsis. The end

BYTEMITE

Monday, August 30, 2010 5:43 PM

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I'd wager a majority of working writers (and many audience members) would disagree quite strongly.

Yes, death can and often does serve a story - it's asinine to say it cannot, and is ONLY for the author's benefit.

You didn't read the full post (not that I blame you, it's long).

Death can serve the story, and often does. I'll even admit that Wash's death will eventually be a good source of character development for Zoe.

But if the sole reason for a death is to add gritty realism to a story, or go a darker edgier direction, I call bull. It doesn't serve the story, it's just author appeal or something the author feels like they have to prove.

At the time of the movie, Wash's death was not well foreshadowed, and Joss has even said he put it in last minute. It shows. It's not well set within the story, it's not poignant like Book was endeavoring for, it's just there. Doing nothing for the story within the frame we have (the movie).

So when someone pops up and says that sudden death is a good plot device for increasing dramatic tension, I have to argue on principle. There might be someone, somewhere, who successfully used sudden death to bring home the reality of a bad situation to their audience, but my general impression is it just makes plot holes.

BYTEMITE

Monday, August 30, 2010 5:50 PM

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The destruction of Alderaan, the massacre at Hoth, Han Solo's torture at Cloud City, the corruption of Anakin Skywalker, the shabla Jedi Purge --there is plenty of gritty darkness in Star Wars and always has been.

Fine, but there's still the little fact that Chewie's death was basically "Wow, no one has died in this franchise for like a really long time. On your toes, people!"

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But isn't that itself a trope older than dirt? It only serves to emphasize the fact that we're watching something fictional, that is driven not by logic or rationality, but by the author blatantly reaching onto the screen and manipulating events to provide exposition. It breaks suspension of disbelief for most of us just as much as verisimilitude seems to do for you.

How unutterably boring would fiction be if all deaths had to be dressed up with operatic arias and choral monologues? Some of us like verisimilitude in our fiction.

Sure it's older than dirt. Done wrong, and you're definitely right thatit can just feel like an emotional manipulation. There's a reason why the term "tear-jerker" tends to be used as a perjorative, in that it can ALSO be a cheap emotional shot.

And you might be right that it could eventually lose the meaning and impact.

But it hasn't yet. Which suggests to me some important and enduring reasons about why people invest themselves in a story in the first place.

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And yes, as Joss notes in the commentary, it's part of the misdirection setup: when Kaylee gets shot, then Jayne, then Simon, you start to think this is going to be a Bolivian Army Ending, where none of them survive. Not just an emotional impact, but a dramatic impact, which alters what we the audience expect from the film.

Does anyone really think at that point Mal's going to die to the Operative? Does Wash dying really add to the sense that any of them could die? I'm just not buying.

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