'I'd rather not die at all.'
POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Friday, July 16, 2010 10:46
VIEWED: 7364
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Originally posted by Bytemite:
We're talking 19th century and Victorian influence, and the staying within the social circles. You think Joss is gonna uphold classism?
To some extent, I do, yes. More realistically, though, I don't think social class enters into the equation so much as theme and character.
The whole thing, thematically, with both the Mal/Inara and Kaylee/Simon relationships is that they list LITERALLY between worlds. Their shared home, Serenity, is a created world/family (one of Whedon's big themes) that is, quite literally, the ONLY place they can exist.
Watch the Kaylee/Simon dynamic very closely. Almost every GOOD moment they have is on the ship. Off the ship? They turn to crap. It's very, very subtle, but Joss tells us time and time again their relationship doesn't hold up when their off the ship. (I'm talking here about the SERIES, not the movie).
In terms of character, Serenity is Kaylee's River. Much as Simon will never abandon River, Kaylee will not abandon her beloved ship. Over time, the fact that both Simon and Kaylee have another "interest" would be strain on the relationship, as would the fact that Kaylee would not want to leave the ship, and Simon, inevitably, would. (Regardless of how comfortable he grows with "the Black," he's eventually going to need a life with more meaning than patching up a few brigands).
I'm not saying that Mal and Kaylee would be a love for the ages, but their shared love of Serenity is far more of a foundation for a relationship than many others have.
As with Simon and Kaylee, I don't think a Mal/Inara relationship has legs. Her lethal condition aside, each ultimately finds the other's position in life unacceptable. Mal would not want to share his love's body with others, and for all that she tries to be cosmopolitan, Inara DOES seek something more respectable than a petty thief. For their relationship to "work," one of them would have to bend knee and become something their not... and the moment that happens, they would change what the other love about them in the first place.
Mal + Inara = Doomed.
Simon + Kaylee = Doomed.
Simon + Inara? Maybe. They clearly have an affinity for one another. They gravitate to one another when in trouble, because they can rely on each other (perhaps in ways that they can't rely on Kaylee and Mal). To bring the "class" issue into it, Simon IS from a class where he could accept Inara as she is and still love her.
Again, not a love to shake the stars, but one of mutual respect and acceptance.
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That like characters are going to end up with like characters? I ain't seein' it, sorry. It has unfortunate implications, and is completely counter to the show's premise about subverting the establishment.
I think you're hanging your had too heavily on a single overarching theme and not looking closely enough at the characters. The House that Joss built is built on CHARACTER-driven stories, so that's always the core. Social mores are secondary.
Like will sometimes end up with like because a) that's human nature, and b) sometimes, that's where the characters take you.
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And while I've never watched Buffy the Vampire Slayer, I'm pretty sure that Buffy/Angel was fairly official, seeing how Buffy/Spike from what I hear didn't work out at all, and there were real issues with Angel/Cordelia of the "unholy abomination of nature Angelus demon unlocked" variety.
If you haven't watched BUFFY, maybe don't comment on BUFFY. I'm not sure what you mean about Buffy and Angel being "official," because they break up and have numerous relationships afterward.
Joss has stated, by the way, that Buffy was originally supposed to end up with XANDER, but that both the Buffy/Spike and Xander/Anya relationships took on lives of their own (again, CHARACTER-driven), so the original plan fell to the way side.
The comic has played with Buffy/Xander and is now playing with Buffy/Angel again... but Spike just came back into the picture, so only time will tell.
The direction of the Ang
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Gosh, here I was thinking Inara would die from her condition, which is in her brain, and Mal would be alone, leaving him feeling like sh*t.
Kaylee, Simon, and River would feel like cr*p because she died and that’s the end of Firefly, sh*t and cr*p, but they are still flying.
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The whole thing, thematically, with both the Mal/Inara and Kaylee/Simon relationships is that they list LITERALLY between worlds. Their shared home, Serenity, is a created world/family (one of Whedon's big themes) that is, quite literally, the ONLY place they can exist.
Watch the Kaylee/Simon dynamic very closely. Almost every GOOD moment they have is on the ship. Off the ship? They turn to crap. It's very, very subtle, but Joss tells us time and time again their relationship doesn't hold up when their off the ship. (I'm talking here about the SERIES, not the movie).
In terms of character, Serenity is Kaylee's River. Much as Simon will never abandon River, Kaylee will not abandon her beloved ship. Over time, the fact that both Simon and Kaylee have another "interest" would be strain on the relationship, as would the fact that Kaylee would not want to leave the ship, and Simon, inevitably, would. (Regardless of how comfortable he grows with "the Black," he's eventually going to need a life with more meaning than patching up a few brigands).
I'm not saying that Mal and Kaylee would be a love for the ages, but their shared love of Serenity is far more of a foundation for a relationship than many others have.
The problem with this is you're hanging yourself with your own argument. Mal and Inara don't work off the ship, Kaylee and Simon don't work off the ship. But Mal and Kaylee work BECAUSE of the SHIP? You're essentially saying the same thing about all three couples.
Honestly, you're probably right that we don't know enough yet. If the series hadn't been canceled, there would have been time for relationships were there was no romantic chemistry at all (Mal/Kaylee, Simon/Inara, heck, maybe even Mal/Zoe if you want to go there) to develop it, so if you argue that, then any relationship at all in the show is possible, sure.
Based on the information we DO have, though, it's fairly straight forward that Kaylee digs Simon, Zoe and Wash dig each other, Mal and Inara are attracted but have issues.
There's little justification for Mal/River within the canon, and little justification for Mal/Kaylee. The only reason why I even suggested Mal/River is because River is either the main character or the second most important character.
Other than that, pairing wise there's not much we can tell about a future 7 seasons, except that Inara has a character arc where Inara's secret, which is an illness, apparently becomes important.
If you think Inara's character arc isn't going to feature Mal in some way, in a prominent role, and that Mal's going to be swept aside to disappear into the verse while Simon takes up the role of the revolutionary... I can't say I think you have much foundation for your argument. I mean, okay, it's a possibility, but it's not a projection that can be made with the information that's known.
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That is a heck of a lot of squinting you're doing, and I think you're looking right past some key relationships that form a thread through much of Joss's work. Virtually everything he's done on TV centers around the concept of created family, and there's key dynamic that appears in three of his four shows (not ANGEL): that of father/daughter, mentor/gifted student:
Giles/Buffy = Mal/River = Boyd/Echo
In all three pairings, a stranger ultimately accepts resposibility for training and/or protecting a younger women who is talented and damaged. While the relationships around them change, this is a pretty strong constant in the Whedonverse.
Book is the Giles/Boyd mentor figure. Mal is the dark anti-hero Angel, and he's Captain Daddy because he's the team dad/protector. Which yes, does imply icky stuff that I don't like either.
Though this is just as true with his "mei mei" Kaylee.
The Ballard/Echo relationship isn't at all brotherly, even in the first season. Several people lampshade that he's acting like a creepy stalker. They also suggest that he has some sort of weird hero fantasy with Echo, in which he ends up romantically involved with the girl. I re
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I feel that the whole Mal/Inara dynamic was going to be one of the central themes for the series. My short answer is that yes, I do believe Inara would ultimately live, and for 3 reasons.
The first would be Mal's reaction once he found out. Mal already feels protective of Inara, as we see primarily in Shindig, but in other places as well. I can see that protectiveness extending to the point where Mal tries to move Heaven and 'Verse to save her. As a side note, that strong of an emotional reaction could easily work as a catalyst to getting Mal and Inara together.
The second is that we do know a little about the medical treatment technology of the time. The custom designed organs we see in The Message hint at advancements that could be potential treatments for a genetic disease (I agree on that point), and I also agree on the point of bid, bad Blue Sun and it's experimental technology and resources being out there. Who know what they've got locked up in their vaults? (Oh, wait, The Operative might have a pretty good idea. But that's another discussion)
The third is admittedly a stretch. Up until this point, all the relationships Joss has had in his series that I can think of have had a tragic ending. Since he like to surprise his fans with unexpected things, I feel like he was saving a happy ending as the surprise.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
The problem with this is you're hanging yourself with your own argument. Mal and Inara don't work off the ship, Kaylee and Simon don't work off the ship. But Mal and Kaylee work BECAUSE of the SHIP? You're essentially saying the same thing about all three couples.
Not at all. You've missed a key component: Mal and Kaylee won't ever want to leave Serenity. They are both, from everything we know, content to live out their days there.
Not true with Simon; not true with Inara.
Yes, any of the relationships CAN work as long as both parties are willing to spend the rest of their days living according to Mal's rules. Simon and Inara will not be.
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Honestly, you're probably right that we don't know enough yet. If the series hadn't been canceled, there would have been time for relationships were there was no romantic chemistry at all (Mal/Kaylee, Simon/Inara, heck, maybe even Mal/Zoe if you want to go there) to develop it, so if you argue that, then any relationship at all in the show is possible, sure.
I agree that any dynamic would be possible after 7 seasons. Using BtVS as an example, there's no possible way that someone could have speculated that during Season Seven Buffy would be knockin' boots with a vampire who wasn't Angel, Xander would be shacking up with a demon, and Willow would be in a lesbian relationship with a potential slayer.
I'm sure the credits would look completely different by the end, so there would be whole new characters we're not taking into consideration... but based on the evidence we have NOW, I'm making my best guesses.
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Based on the information we DO have, though, it's fairly straight forward that Kaylee digs Simon, Zoe and Wash dig each other, Mal and Inara are attracted but have issues.
You are correct on all this. It is equally clear that Kaylee and Simon have serious issues that they're ignoring.
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There's little justification for Mal/River within the canon, and little justification for Mal/Kaylee.
I agree that there is little justification for Mal/Kaylee based on events... but if you look at the characters closely, the foundation is there. Would it be used? I don't know. But I do know that during the first season of FRIENDS, I used to ask why they were focussing on Ross and Rachel when, in fact Monica and Chandler were clearly a stronger couple who should be together. People thought the notion was ridiculous at the time.
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The only reason why I even suggested Mal/River is because River is either the main character or the second most important character.
No offense, but that reasoning is kind of weak tea.
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Other than that, pairing wise there's not much we can tell about a future 7 seasons, except that Inara has a character arc where Inara's secret, which is an illness, apparently becomes important.
Which would, inevitably, draw her and Simon closer together as he struggles to save her. :)
I'm of the mind that Simon is very "project-driven." Yes, he loves River, but he also loves that her needing him gives him a project to work on, a sense of self-worth, and a way to utilize his abilities.
As River gains indepedence, that will be an open wound for him, and I suspect he would jump at the chance to play white knight again and have a new project to work on.
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If you think Inara's character arc isn't going to feature Mal in some way, in a prominent role, and that Mal's going to be swept aside to disappear into the verse while Simon takes up the role of the revolutionary... I can't say I think you have much foundation for your argument.
Again, your mis-reading what I've said.
On a romantic level, I suspect that Mal and Inara will have a wonderful and tempestuous affair. Could be that they're even soul mates of a sort. I just think that, in the long term, their relationship will burn itself out.
On a social level, yes, a FULLY expect Mal to be swept aside and disappear in the larger 'Verse. Because that's exactly what H
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Not at all. You've missed a key component: Mal and Kaylee won't ever want to leave Serenity. They are both, from everything we know, content to live out their days there.
Not true: The still flying book has Mal fantasizing about giving up his gun and settling on a planet somewhere with Inara.
Also not true: in Better Days, Kaylee's dream is to start a mechanics workshop/factory in the core.
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Not true with Simon; not true with Inara.
Not NOT true with Inara. You think maybe the three times she says she doesn't want to leave Serenity, and that she loved the ship from the moment she saw her, that maybe she MEANT it?
The only reason she does leave is because of Mal, and that's arguably because of her secret.
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Yes, any of the relationships CAN work as long as both parties are willing to spend the rest of their days living according to Mal's rules. Simon and Inara will not be.
Ehm, no, because this precludes the possibility that the characters, including Mal, COULD change (or try to, with difficulties and stepbacks). Granted you don't want character change to be ridiculous, obviously they must remain recognizably the same character, but advancing, growing, solving problems? That's why we watch characters, not to see them make the same mistakes again and again.
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No offense, but that reasoning is kind of weak tea.
No kidding, and that's why I'm not a Mal/River shipper. But we're discussing storyline potential based on what's present in the show.
What basis does Mal Kaylee have? She kisses him once on the cheek in an affectionate daughterly or sisterly fashion and says she loves her captain. What basis does Mal River have? He has a conversation with her about love in the movie, and takes her after she was triggered, when he probably should have left her. It's disturbing to put River in a relationship when she's so broken, yet Joss did just that with Echo, and yes, I hated that pairing for exactly that reason.
My feeling is neither pairing has much basis, and both are about equal. I could be wrong about Mal/River though. I don't think I'm wrong about Mal/Kaylee.
Could this change? Sure. Is the fact that it's merely a possibility any indication that it would, or that it would work out? Not necessarily. Like your Chandler Monica example, every character eventually got with every OTHER character in that show (or nearly so, in a case of a near event with Ross and Phoebe). You predicted they would get together, you didn't (and couldn't) have predicted they would work out.
Also the Ross/Rachel thing was present from the beginning, so that's a pretty good bet it would go to the end. Kinda like Ballard/Echo, and kinda like Buffy/Angel (which is still a prominent pairing, isn't it?)
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Which would, inevitably, draw her and Simon closer together as he struggles to save her. :)
I'm of the mind that Simon is very "project-driven." Yes, he loves River, but he also loves that her needing him gives him a project to work on, a sense of self-worth, and a way to utilize his abilities.
As River gains indepedence, that will be an open wound for him, and I suspect he would jump at the chance to play white knight again and have a new project to work on.
I disagree here. Simon isn't so focused on River because she's a "project." That would make him no different than Doctor Mathias and others more interested in using River. I mean this is just creepy, and suggests Simon has no interest in River as a person, only someone to try to "fix" to alleviate his boredom. Hell, that makes him WORSE than Mathias.
And then to say that THAT is a good basis to establish a romantic relationship on, with Inara, as another non-person project he has no emotional investment in?
Uh, no. I don't agree. If he has an interest in fixing River, it's because she is his SISTER. Likewise, if he were to have an interest in fixing Inara, it would be because Inara is a FRIEND. OR a lover.
Now, I don't disagree that the doctor patient connection is somethi
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GWEK, you are basing your speculations on unfounded assumptions, there is nothing in canon to suggest that Mal WON'T ever leave Serenity (see Take the Sky) or Kaylee (see Better Days) or that Inara wants to leave Serenity (see Shindig) and how miserable she was when she had to leave. Or that Simon CAN leave Serenity, he’s still a fugitive.
Since we have only half a season, a movie, some short stories, and a few comics it’s probably best to stick to canon when speculating, otherwise, as Byte says, any of these characters could be paired together for exploration, as they so often are in fanfic, see Rayne and Mal/Simon for a plethora on that.
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Originally posted by chrisisall:
Does Inara's fatal disease trouble you?
Would a cure have been found before the end of the series?
"I don't know..."
Will Inara star with Mal after Serenity? Has she realized that in the time she has left, Malcolm is her best choice of "companionship?"
I find that this new dimension to the Firefly 'Verse makes it all the more compelling, and sad, and happy...
Like life.
Ok,
lets pretend for a moment that I know what your talking about. What are you talking about? Did I miss something in the series?
----------------------------------------------------------------
70's TV FOREVER
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Nope, it's fairly recent, like sometime last year at Dragon-Con, and then kind of confirmed by Joss and followed up in the short stories in Still Flying.
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=22301
Select to view spoiler:
Speaking of “Firefly” secrets, Morena Baccarin had recently spilled the beans at a convention that her character Inara was suffering from a terminal illness, which Whedon went on to reluctantly confirm.
Interview with Joss:
http://www.tvguide.com/News/Whedon-Buffy-Angel-1003015.aspx
Transcript:
http://stormwreath.livejournal.com/70109.html
Select to view spoiler:
When can we expect a Serenity 2 movie; and if never, can you tell us what Inara's secret was?
I'm not giving up Inara's secret - although I believe Morena has at conventions. Thanks, darling.
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I've wondered for a while if this "leak" wasn't a set up, though. Why didn't Joss deny it? What was up with the kid who asked the question, and why would Joss tell THEM?
I wonder if Joss and Morena discussed it, and decided "let's drop something misleading for the fans to grab on to and generate interest."
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