River Tam Vs Luke Skywalker
POSTED BY: two
UPDATED: Thursday, July 8, 2010 18:49
VIEWED: 9122
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River has no chance in hell against any jedi. It's not even close to a fair fight. The force user can simply hold her in a force grip and she's completely worthless offensively or defensively. I know people want River to win cause they like her, but it's not even close.
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I dunno. Non-Force-Users are capable of killing Jedi, if they have good training, skill, and adaptability. Hell, the Mando'a have pretty much made a national sport out of it.
A big part of a Jedi's danger-sense is reading peoples' intentions. River's mind might just be too chaotic to get a reliable reading --and River herself might be doing the same kind of "read" on the Jedi.
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We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
River has no chance in hell against any jedi. It's not even close to a fair fight. The force user can simply hold her in a force grip and she's completely worthless offensively or defensively. I know people want River to win cause they like her, but it's not even close.
River versus Vader or Palpatine, maybe - but Luke's a Good Guy who's been brought up not to Use The Force on girls (unless he's got all twisted after narrowly escaping dating his sister). He'll hesitate.
Anyway - River's a quick learner: dump her in a universe where the Force works and she'll figure it out in two shakes.
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She has to have the MIDO-SILLY-NAME-IANS though!
Maybe she can manufacture them.
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Quote:
The force user can simply hold her in a force grip and she's completely worthless offensively or defensively. I know people want River to win cause they like her, but it's not even close.
Yeah, except force users rarely ever do this.
I've pieced together a sense of why from some of the EU books.
1) The Force comes from living things, or at least midochlorian compatible living things.
2) A person can draw on their own force, but it's pretty weak, and for stronger effects people usually have to resort to drawing on the ambient force
3) The ambient force comes with some conditions. It, or the sources emitting it, kind of have to approve of what you're doing, or be unaware of it. Go against the "will" of the force, so to speak, and you pay a penalty.
The force "likes" healing things and helping living things, because it comes from living things. It "dislikes" being used to harm living things, but can make exceptions if the goal is merely to incapacitate or to rescue other living things in the process (some kind of net-zero thing). This is possibly why eating food in the Star Wars universe doesn't make someone pure evil, or why a Jedi isn't evil for saving themselves, and not saving the Gamorrean that gets eaten by a Rancor.
The force doesn't really care about the arguments Sith and Jedi have about emotions and affection, besides Jedi being dumb because they aren't creating enough new life because they're so stuffy and unemotive. It only cares if it's being misused, which not all Sith do (some were incredible healers), unfortunately their philosophy does lend itself to brute violence and taking what they want.
Anyway. Basic gist is, choking a living thing or holding some lifeform in place (possibly while you skewer them with a lightsaber) is in contradiction to what living things in general want, so technically it's a dark side power that damages the user. Luke does this once that I can remember to the Gamorrean in Jabba the Hutt's den, but it wasn't a particularly egregious example because 1) he only incapacitated the Gamorrean, and 2) he was trying to save Han. He probably got out of dark side points or self damage on that.
He might be able to hold River in place, but I doubt he would, Luke tends to work with the will of the force, not force his own will on it. And I suspect because of that, he's just not very good at dark side powers, meaning he's likely to fail if he tries to use them. Though I might be mistaken, there's some entries in the EU I've never really read, where Luke plays spy to a clone of Palpatine and appears to fall to the dark side. And appparently he can also use Force Lightning, possibly from during this time.
But I also imagine that the Force might have it's own plans in regards to a Luke and River showdown (since it can apparently originate its own prophecies), and the Force seems to try to protect Luke, so probably Luke wouldn't be able to hold River, but at the same time, River could not harm Luke.
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Quote:The discussion is getting too high minded.
Originally posted by ImNotHere:
Luke's a Good Guy...unless he's got all twisted after narrowly escaping dating his sister.
Luke/Leia. "That was so wrong."
- Princess Leia, Robot Chicken: Star Wars Special (2007)
The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two
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I believe this one says it best:
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We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:Quote:
The force user can simply hold her in a force grip and she's completely worthless offensively or defensively. I know people want River to win cause they like her, but it's not even close.
Yeah, except force users rarely ever do this.
I've pieced together a sense of why from some of the EU books.
1) The Force comes from living things, or at least midochlorian compatible living things.
2) A person can draw on their own force, but it's pretty weak, and for stronger effects people usually have to resort to drawing on the ambient force
3) The ambient force comes with some conditions. It, or the sources emitting it, kind of have to approve of what you're doing, or be unaware of it. Go against the "will" of the force, so to speak, and you pay a penalty.
The force "likes" healing things and helping living things, because it comes from living things. It "dislikes" being used to harm living things, but can make exceptions if the goal is merely to incapacitate or to rescue other living things in the process (some kind of net-zero thing). This is possibly why eating food in the Star Wars universe doesn't make someone pure evil, or why a Jedi isn't evil for saving themselves, and not saving the Gamorrean that gets eaten by a Rancor.
The force doesn't really care about the arguments Sith and Jedi have about emotions and affection, besides Jedi being dumb because they aren't creating enough new life because they're so stuffy and unemotive. It only cares if it's being misused, which not all Sith do (some were incredible healers), unfortunately their philosophy does lend itself to brute violence and taking what they want.
Anyway. Basic gist is, choking a living thing or holding some lifeform in place (possibly while you skewer them with a lightsaber) is in contradiction to what living things in general want, so technically it's a dark side power that damages the user. Luke does this once that I can remember to the Gamorrean in Jabba the Hutt's den, but it wasn't a particularly egregious example because 1) he only incapacitated the Gamorrean, and 2) he was trying to save Han. He probably got out of dark side points or self damage on that.
He might be able to hold River in place, but I doubt he would, Luke tends to work with the will of the force, not force his own will on it. And I suspect because of that, he's just not very good at dark side powers, meaning he's likely to fail if he tries to use them.
I also imagine that the Force might have it's own plans in regards to a Luke and River showdown (since it can apparently originate its own prophecies), and the Force seems to try to protect Luke, so probably Luke wouldn't be able to hold River, but at the same time, River could not harm Luke.
Actually at the end of the New Jedi Order series they reveal that all the light side/dark side stuff was just Jedi dogma. There really is no such thing. The Jedi were just afraid of their emotions and what their powers were capable of.
So, while the force may have some will of its own, there isn't really any downside to the powers that are commonly referred to as "dark side" powers.
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Yeah, the "reward/punishment" thing is just natural consequences.
The Light Side is about drawing on and strengthening natural processes, so light-siders tend to live longer, healthier lives. The Dark Side is about forcing more power out of the system (like overclocking a computer or pumping nitrus oxide into an engine), so dark-siders end up twisted, scarred, and "used up" by the power they wield. Opposite sides of the coin.
It's driven by behaviour, not so much by the particular Force skills being used. (Though, obviously, some skills lend themselves better to abuse than others.)
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We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.
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Quote:
Actually at the end of the New Jedi Order series they reveal that all the light side/dark side stuff was just Jedi dogma. There really is no such thing. The Jedi were just afraid of their emotions and what their powers were capable of.
Dark side is not necessarily Sith, light side is not necessarily Jedi. This seems to be the same argument about Sith philosophy versus Jedi philosophy, about which you're right, the Jedi were severely limited by their dogma, and their taboo on love and marriage and other emotions brought about their downfall in numerous ways.
But there's also the Unifying Force philosophy, which is the aspect of the Force where some things are predetermined, and which says the Force is neither good or evil, it just is.
Emperor Palpatine was a believer in the Unifying Force, and said the only difference in the Sith and the Jedi was that the Sith saw the Force as a mean to an end (often benefitting themselves at the expense of others) while the Jedi saw the Force as an end in of itself. He's probably right, with conditions.
There's consequences to be found in using the Force beyond the body's capacity to sustain it, such as accelerated aging, scarring, physical damage, etc., and surprise surprise, some of the abilities requiring the most Force to sustain are the aggressive abilities, Force Lighting and forms of Telekinesis that include the Force Grip and Force Choke abilities, but Dominate Mind can take a lot of effort to keep up, as well, especially over a long period.
As such, I still say there are uses of the Force that constitute abuse, and that abuse seems to be related to mistreatment of living beings, and so while the Jedi and Sith philosophies are neither one correct and both correct at the same time, there are still very different aspects between force powers, and some can be called light, and some can be called dark, based on the differences and uses, as well as the intentions of the users.
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