Would Zoe be a good mother?

POSTED BY: Bytemite
UPDATED: Sunday, December 11, 2011 16:00
VIEWED: 26237
PAGE 2 of 7

PREV PAGE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 NEXT PAGE

AGENTROUKA

Monday, June 28, 2010 9:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by sydneydebs:
I don't see Zoe as a mother at all, she's a fighter and a warrior not a mother.

How is that mutually exclusive?

I agree about Serenity not being the right place, but therehave been plenty of warrior fathers in the past, so the two concepts must obviously be compatible.

She would, of course, need a supporting spouse to provide the more time-consuming hands-on care, but she HAD that in Wash.

TWO

Monday, June 28, 2010 12:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Luck had a mean streak for Serenity. Even if they went legit, someone would want to try to shoot them and take the goods.

Wash seems to think he knows some places planetside that would be safer. It doesn't look like Wash hopped on Serenity right out of getting flight certified, he's been around the verse, he could know somewhere that would have worked for him and Zoe. Also, it's very possible that with Wash's piloting skills, even if they didn't necessarily go planetside, they could have found a berth on like a luxury cruiser or something. This is basically what Wash's dream is in Better Days.

Being a good mother means more than prenatal Doctor appointments and Mommy taking her vitamins and eating right for the baby. Being a good mother also means not dying in a hail of bullets. Zoe is all stoic and calm, but she's also crazy, dangerously obsessed with being a warrior -- Wash is the levelheaded one in that marriage. Before Zoe gets pregnant, Wash will push Zoe off that pirate ship. And force her to stop hanging with dangerous criminals. That needs to happen.

Select to view spoiler:

Wash's old friends in Serenity Float Out never said, “Hello, very pregnant Zoe!” Patton Oswalt, writing the comic, is tricking us. We're suppose to assume that woman drawn by Patric Reynolds is Zoe. Does NOT look like Zoe. Would the real Zoe go all alone to the christening of the Jetwash, without even Malcolm Reynolds? No, she would not!

I prefer to believe Wash is a sly dog that knocked up a woman that never goes near criminals. And this mystery woman does not own a gun. She was never a warrior. But if Zoe ever finds out that Wash has an illegitimate daughter, Wash will be dead, dead, dead.... The picture is from Float Out.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

BYTEMITE

Monday, June 28, 2010 2:46 PM

Quote:
Might not be, but it is excellent foreshadowing. The story structure of that scene, to me, was always more about Wash than a potential child. She couldn't be so afraid of losing her husband that she wouldn't try for marriage. (and, in the way of such things, babies.)
Maybe I'm reading too much into it, with all that literature study infecting my brain, but every time I watch that scene I get a flash of what's being foreshadowed, and I marvel at the cleverness of the misdirection surrounding that shadow.

That's a neat take.

Though technically it would be retroactive foreshadowing, because in the original version of the script for Serenity, Wash lives.

Quote:
Uh. That... wasn't a legal job. It was explicitly smuggling. The words most commonly associated with that job were "smuggler" "smuggled stock" "black-market (beagles)" and "disreputable men" to name just a few.

I said good AND/OR legal. It was a good job. No, it wasn't legal.

I'm pretty sure they had an actual LEGAL job at one point in the series, though it was only mentioned in passing. I don't recall that it ended well either. Can't remember what it was now, so maybe I'm mistaken.

Quote:
That's just cruel. Cruel and malicious. If Zoe was a real person, she would kick your ass for saying that. If she could have over-protected her way between Wash and that lance, damn right she would have, and you should know that if you paid the slightest bit of attention.

That wasn't at all what Platonist was saying. She was saying if Zoe really was overprotective, the Reaver-stake thing wouldn't have been an issue in the first place, because she would have taken her husband and headed for safety, instead of running towards danger. She had a choice to stay behind on Haven and not go to Miranda when she saw the dark road Mal was headed down, and she didn't. She chose danger, she chose to put herself and Wash in danger because where Zoe goes, Wash follows.

Wash is right that Zoe maybe follows Mal's lead a little too much, especially considering how reckless Mal can be, and in this case, it cost Wash his life, and Zoe her husband. I don't think any of us who know what Zoe and Mal have been through and know their relationship could think that Zoe hasn't given Mal enough. She would have been in her rights to walk away.

Either she hangs out with Mal out of warforged habit, or she hangs out with Mal because he is just not doing very well and she's trying to help him. I'd like to believe it's the later. Even still, at some point you have to realize, if someone is as suicidal as Mal is, that you can't take responsibility for their happiness. Following them into suicidal behaviour doesn't help them, it doesn't help anyone.

PLATONIST

Monday, June 28, 2010 3:55 PM

Two, I'm more than sure that's Zoe.

The thing about Zoe, as we’ve seen her, is that she WANTS everything, a loving husband, to follow Mal, a child, continued position on Serenity and fighting those fights, quick retirement money, which she can spend on lavish hotel rooms, even if it means taking from others, killing others.

Zoe could have left with Wash anytime, like he asked her to. She knew from experience what life was like with Mal, but she didn’t put Wash’s needs first. Protecting those you love isn’t strapping a gun on your hip and when someone threatens them, you whip it out, it’s making good long term choices, finding a safe place live to celebrate and enjoy life’s offerings, working together to create things over time, etc. Anything else falls short.

I agree with what’s been stated above, Zoe would need to make some changes in her lifestyle, but I think that’s what is somewhat implied in Float Out. It’s a narrative twist.

BYTEMITE

Monday, June 28, 2010 5:05 PM

Quote:
Wash’s former jobs didn’t seem all that dangerous or violent; he must have known a different life was out there.

Well, one job was dangerous, but he was smart enough and skilled enough that it wasn't really. (Madcap)

Another job suddenly had bad luck manifest in the form of Reavers (No one ever expects the Reavers, so otherwise the job wasn't dangerous), but again Wash was smart and skilled enough that it wasn't a problem.

The last job was pretty safe.

I suspect Wash just doesn't like being shot at. Environmental hazards he's fine with, those are a challenge, and in his mind substantially less risk of dying than people actually wanting to kill him.

TWO

Monday, June 28, 2010 5:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:
Two, I'm more than sure that's Zoe. ...in Float Out. It’s a narrative twist.

I am not as sure as you are.

Select to view spoiler:

I can choose based on where I want the story of Serenity to go to next:
1) Pregnant Zoe is at the christening of the JetWash. That wraps up the story in a nice, neat package. Zoe could responsibly resign as First Officer on Serenity to go raise her daughter in a safe environment. How very dull. I'm not gonna watch that show.
2) Or I can choose to believe that wasn't Zoe at the christening. Now we get some excitement. That woman in the comic was some other black woman with which Wash was two-timing Zoe. This scenario allows for much more fun. Zoe gets to stay on Serenity and have a very dangerous life. Wash gets a daughter, posthumously. Zoe and Zoe2 get to clash and bond over Wash's child. That's a show I wanna watch.

It might be mistaken identification to call that woman in the Float Out comic “Zoe.” Nobody says “Hello Zoe” in the comic. Nobody from the rest of the Serenity crew was standing with Zoe2. We see a curly headed black woman that looks a little similar to Gina Torres. It is not a good enough likeness in a police sketch to positively identify her. (It is understandable to confuse that picture with Gina Torres because on TV Gina is the only black woman with dialogue in every Firefly episode. Also, there is shortage of Chinese people in a Universe that is half Chinese, but I'm not gonna start arguing about who gets hired by lily-white people on shows made in California for Rupert Murdoch. Rupert married Chinese but doesn't have them on his shows. What's up with that creepy old man from FOX? )

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

BYTEMITE

Monday, June 28, 2010 5:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Byte, you flatter me immensely for remembering my opinion!

Hey, eventually something has to penetrate my thick skull. I'd prefer it to be ideas.

...*squicks self*

Quote:
I think Zoe could be a great mother - if she changed some things. She has a big capacity to love, a lot of patience and can adjust her tone well to suit the needs of the individual person (see River in Janestown). But only when she's not getting bitter and emo about the war, closing herself off and shying away from making choices.

Good point! Zoe often helps handle the crew when Mal is being a hump, or uncommunicative, or brooding, or being an idiot (Saffron).

Between her and Inara, it's hard to tell just who is Team Mom. Zoe keeps the ship sane when Mal's not, but Inara supplies the emotional comfort that's the hallmark of the role.

Zoe plus Wash probably would have been great parents, because Wash could fill the emotional needs of the kid. Now I guess Zoe's going to figure that out for herself.

She has potential, but if she's practicing being motherly, explaining to Simon why Captain Daddy punched him for stepping wrong around the topic of Serenity Valley, then saying in all seriousness that she WILL kill him if she has to is probably not the tactic she'd want to use on her own kid.

Quote:
That moment in HoG shows her at her worst. I see a woman wanting a child for the wrong reasons, unready to make the necessary committments and unable to respect her husbands valid opinion on the matter, so that would have been a brutal disaster.

Yup. Even before realizing the whole wrong reasons thing, it would be a disaster to have a baby on Serenity, even with top 3 percent medic on board. There's so much that could go wrong.

Though, to be fair to Zoe in regards to Wash... If Zoe really didn't respect him, she would have gone ahead and stopped birthcontrol already to force the issue. Apparently this is an argument they've been having for a while, so even though in the argument she sounds pretty demanding and final, she's clearly been willing to talk it out with Wash to try to convince him. So at least she wants Wash to be on board with the decision, and is waiting for him to be willing to come around.

Perhaps her demanding, officious "I want this baby, PERIOD" is just the way her soldier self is coming out, the way she happens to be expressing herself at the time, Zoe's character voice. Perhaps it's not so much "I'll do anything to have this baby, and to hell with you"

Quote:
Seeing her trying to stand up to Mal, question his choices and be comforted by Wash in the beginning of the movie gave me some hope, though. After the movie, she could either get worse and cling to Mal more than ever, or finally find herself and make a life of her own with actual room for the things she wants. I'm, of course, hoping for the latter because Zoe is too awesome to languish in a backward-facing life.

Yeah, I think she was starting to come around too. Platonist tells me in the longer movie script, Zoe and Wash reach an agreement. Zoe agrees to leave the ship, Wash agrees they can try for a kid.

PLATONIST

Monday, June 28, 2010 5:44 PM

Two, I bow to your creativity:) and it would have been a much more interesting storyline, but I have a feeling the narrative is going in a different direction, whether we approve or not.

That’s life in a Joss verse, twists and turns and no one character gets exactly what they want, there is always restitution to pay if you get a smidge of happiness, if you know what I mean…don’t want to add any more spoilers.

BYTEMITE

Monday, June 28, 2010 6:11 PM

Ooh! Wait. What if any potential Zoe baby was created... With Blue Sun help?

Ties to the main storyline, boo yah!

Heh, probably if they were going to Diabolus Ex Machina the whole shebang, they would've just had Blue Sun bring back Wash somehow, so I'm not sure how realistic it is. But that has some potential, yeah?

I have trouble imagining Wash cheat on Zoe, but he IS a flyboy I guess, they do have a reputation for womanizing at every port.

TWO

Monday, June 28, 2010 6:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Ooh! Wait. What if any potential Zoe baby was created... With Blue Sun help?

Ties to the main storyline, boo yah!

Heh, probably if they were going to Diabolus Ex Machina the whole shebang, they would've just had Blue Sun bring back Wash somehow, so I'm not sure how realistic it is. But that has some potential, yeah?

I have trouble imagining Wash cheat on Zoe, but he IS a flyboy I guess, they do have a reputation for womanizing at every port.

I got a story idea. Before Wash meets Zoe, he lives with his girlfriend. Wash breaks up with her because he is not ready for fatherhood. Wash leaves town and takes a job flying for Zoe and Mal. Now for the science fiction part. The heartbroken woman does not have an abortion. She has the fetus put into suspended animation in hope that Wash will come back and be there when the baby is born. [Blue Sun Fertility Clinic will make it possible.]

But when Wash dies the girlfriend goes forward with the much delayed pregnancy. All of Wash's old friends, except Mal and Zoe, know about this girlfriend. Once the baby is born, Zoe wants to raise her. Wash's girlfriend does not want to give up her child to Wash's wife. How's that for strange family dynamics that science fiction makes possible?

Joss Whedon could make an entertaining story from that idea in season 2 of Firefly. Wash is dead yet Alan Tudyk could play him in flashbacks to before he works for Zoe and Mal.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

PREV PAGE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 NEXT PAGE