Sci-Fi - Fantasy Women (Split from John Carter of Mars thread)
POSTED BY: Bytemite
UPDATED: Sunday, May 9, 2010 06:52
VIEWED: 13376
PAGE 5 of 7
Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
HK is right, art is about symbolism, and that picture is laden with some troublesome and disturbing symbolism.
And I tend to think that if you're going in looking for disturbing symbolism, you can find it even where not intended.
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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I really wasn't, Geezer, that picture hit me right away. The symbolism was in my face, otherwise I wouldn't have made a big deal about it right from the moment I saw it.
There were a few pictures of scantily clad women posted before that in the thread I believe, I didn't comment on them because I was fine letting you boys be boys. Then the picture of La was posted, and the focus was on the woman's breasts which is what I first saw, and wasn't quite disturbed, though I was annoyed and amused by the metal pasties. The next thing I saw was that she was CRYING, and then I WAS disturbed. There is a BIG difference. If she hadn't been crying, I would've just given my lighthearted rant about how non-functional and uncomfortable chainmail bikinis are (even claiming that NUDITY would have been better in a bit of hypocritical humor), then made a couple jokes, and then wandered off somewhere else.
You'll notice I only picked out the two pictures that I was offended by. The second I found offensive because of the whole scantily clad damsel in distress thing, which is a story trope that ANNOYS me, much like the metal bikini thing, but really I probably wouldn't have even noticed the damsel in distress thing (or cared that much) if I didn't see the crying woman thing first.
Please don't just dismiss me just because you think I'm some femnazi now. If you remember in the past, I have not behaved consistently with a femnazi. I'm not yelling for the pictures to be removed from the posts, or saying that the works with the pictures in them should be boycotted, or even that the artist and the fans of these works are evil. I am having an open, civil discussion about the symbolism in the pictures, which I think are offensive, and I have been explaining why in an effort to show how subconscious and subversive certain views and portrayals of women are in our culture. I think that I have a valid complaint about the troublesome nature of some of these pictures, that you and chris-is-all and a few others for some reason aren't aware of, and aren't even able to see. Which suggests to me that accepting this symbolism and it's underlying meanings is something that has been ingrained into you by our culture. It's possible you may not see it because you've become inured to it.
Three people are telling you that the symbolism is there (two of them are male!). So I'm not the only one who sees it here, I'm not imagining that the symbolism is present, even if I do seem to be the only one who sees chains and slavery symbolism. Two other people see what I'm talking about with depictions of debasement and female humiliation/submission.
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HK, Byte -
"The woman is not a slave, she is La, high priestess of the Flaming God of Opar. The collar is not a slave collar, but a badge of office. I expect that this is the point where Tarzan recovers from amnesia and rejects La's advances. She then tries to kill him but cannot bring herself to do so."
You seem so focused - ironically - on her breasts and finding the negative messages. No one finds the fact that Tarzan can't see La's tears interesting?
Myself, I didn't see rape or a slave collar - she has a knife for one which makes the other two less likely, but honestly, I don't know enough to make presumptions about the context from the image.
I honestly saw her tears and her breasts at about the same time. Seriously, breasts in various forms of cover have become so ubiquitous that the only thing noteworthy about these are that they are drawn and they are really out there. Minimal clothing is pretty standard for science fiction, but that is really minimal.
I find Whedon's use of rape to be much more disturbing.
HK:
"So in the case of this painting apparently illustrating "Tarzan and the Jewels of Opar" the painter chose the precise moment of the narrative to depict. He chose what to emphasize and what to dismiss. He chose the camera angle, the composition. He chose what emotions to describe. So what did he choose?"
Agreed with everything except what you interpret from what was chosen, to me it is not one of violence and rape. I see Tarzan's look to be one of anger and disappointment, that he has been betrayed by someone he once trusted. Defiant but defensive, not aggressive at all (fists are not clenched). By her body La has turned away from him, she is hiding her emotions, she has failed at whatever he initial task was and is saddened by the turn of events. By being on the ground she is shown as the defeated and with Tarzan standing he is triumphant. But at an emotional price. Her look is one of finality, what could have been is gone, "no turning back." Clearly, this was chosen because it is a pivotal scene, the two main characters' resolution. Maybe you guys dismissed the potential in this scene because it's "just a Tarzan comic?" and saw instead the things that validate your negative perceptions of this world.
So what do you see here?
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Quote:
By being on the ground she is shown as the defeated and with Tarzan standing he is triumphant. But at an emotional price.
So we agree here. But you don't agree that she has been overly sexualized by the image, that the image doesn't focus on her emotions? The perspective of the image puts "eye level" so to speak right at her breasts, which draws the eye to them. Nothing compositionally really draws the eye to her crying, which is why I didn't notice it until later.
And if the image is NOT focusing on her emotions, but on her appearance, specifically her breasts and lack of clothing, what reaction is the image designed to invoke in the viewer, who, because of the medium and the times that this was drawn, was most likely to be male?
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:Quote:
By being on the ground she is shown as the defeated and with Tarzan standing he is triumphant. But at an emotional price.
So we agree here. But you don't agree that she has been overly sexualized by the image, that the image doesn't focus on her emotions? The perspective of the image puts "eye level" so to speak right at her breasts, which draws the eye to them. Nothing compositionally really draws the eye to her crying, which is why I didn't notice it until later.
And if the image is NOT focusing on her emotions, but on her appearance, specifically her breasts and lack of clothing, what reaction is the image designed to invoke in the viewer, who, because of the medium and the times that this was drawn, was most likely to be male?
Heh, we really don't agree Byte!
Maybe you'd feel better if she were wearing a burka? Given our culture's modesty you could put that mostly uncovered breast in the upper left corner and it would still command our attention - so I can see why you think it's the focus.
You seem to suggest that a scantily clad women cannot be strong or dominant, that she has to be a victim, that these 2 could not have been equals. I would think that goes against the feminist ideal.
You also seem to suggest that a man cannot be sexualized by his state of dress. Captain Tight Pants any one? Or:
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Quote:A man demeaned by his pseudo-masturbatory positioning, and his reliance on his "weapon" to define his worth.
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
So what do you see here?
The laughing Chrisisall
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Pizmo. The concept of perspective. What is "eye level" in that picture?
Wait, perhaps I'm making a mistake in assuming people have taken the humanities and study of art courses I have. Okay. Does anyone here know what a "worms eye view" is? Does anyone agree with me that the perspective in that picture is based on worm's eye view?
The burqa joke was funny when Geezer made it, but less funny in repetition. Didn't I just say that I didn't even comment on the other nearly nude women pictures in the other thread? Please stop mischaracterizing my arguments.
Quote:
You seem to suggest that a scantily clad women cannot be strong or dominant, that she has to be a victim, that these 2 could not have been equals. I would think that goes against the feminist ideal.
I would think I said nothing of the sort and I would THINK I'm more offended by the damn damsel in distress trope which DOES make the male more dominant!
Tarzan isn't the focus of that picture, and men can be sexualized, but the issue here is whether that woman is being not just sexualized, but OBJECTIFIED. If her sexualization is intended to make people ignore her emotional state or even ENJOY it.
If you saw a woman crying in real life, undressed and seeming emotionally broken and defeated lying on the floor, I GUARANTEE you would be troubled. So why is this picture okay? Why are you not troubled by this picture?
You know what? Fuck it. I give up. If you're just going to ignore everything I say, mock me, say I'm making things up, and refuse to even consider an alternative point of view, then I'm done with this conversation.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
If you saw a woman crying in real life, undressed and seeming emotionally broken and defeated lying on the floor, I GUARANTEE you would be troubled. So why is this picture okay? Why are you not troubled by this picture?
Because it's not real life?
If I saw a man cut another man in half with a sword in real life I'd probably be troubled. I'd also be scared. When Obi Wan cuts Darth Maul in half in the phantom menace I just smile.
To be fair I didn't examine the picture a lot. I didn't notice she was crying or even glance at her necklace. I also didn't notice tarzan's expression. Without understanding the context the picture doesn't mean a whole lot to me. Really I just thought it was poorly drawn.
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:A man demeaned by his pseudo-masturbatory positioning, and his reliance on his "weapon" to define his worth.
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
So what do you see here?
Exactly - you're good at this! How about here?
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