Sci-Fi - Fantasy Women (Split from John Carter of Mars thread)
POSTED BY: Bytemite
UPDATED: Sunday, May 9, 2010 06:52
VIEWED: 13376
PAGE 4 of 7
Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
I suggest that if you see slave collars, abuse, and debasement fetishism in the image, perhaps it's your bias and not the image.
Thx Geezer. I have been thinking the same, (and for HK too). The image works like an ink blot.
Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com
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Quote:At 11?? Gorram straight I'd not.
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
But, in terms of the discussion at hand, you're kinda movin' the goal posts there, Chachi. If Ms. Seymour were nearly naked, with metal pastied breasts thrust toward the camera, her finger nails sharp as claws, tears streaming down her face, one fist clenched in suppressed rage, you may not have such fond memories of the experience, am I right?
After a certain age however, it'd be the nearly nude actress that'd have got my attention, TOTALLY apart from the story. In point of fact, it'd have been a SEVERE distraction FROM it.
So annnnny way:
The laughing Chrisisall
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No one else besides me, HK and Frem sees something that looks like a chain attached to the necklace? Or that the camera is very specifically focused on her breasts?
When Chris-is-all and I were discussing this in the other thread, he made the same mistake I did and identified La as this Dejah Thoris. And he thought that the picture might have been taken from when she was a slave, which was when he told me she starts out as a slave.
She throws herself on the floor? I really don't find self-abasement of females drawn by male artists that much better. The picture speaks for itself, IMO. Even if Tarzan never touched her, the ARTIST did debase a female character, a respectable one and a leader of her people/religious order, and drew her at the feet of a man, crying, with what looks like a collar with a chain on it (like a slave collar) and all emphasis on how sexy she's supposed to be.
Now an artist can draw what they want, but I think it's important people understand the symbolism of what it is they're buying. Does anyone here think that picture is for anything BUT titillation? Despite the miserable and very upset female?
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Because "Dejah Thoris sits in the palace protected by warriors. Nothing happens to her." doesn't make a very interesting story?
That's not what I meant. Why have warriors if none of them stand a chance against the other baddies out in the environment? The only way that would work is if your people vastly outnumber the green men, so you can get away with a loss here or there, or if you have crazy reproduction rates. Are they more warrior or scout, because I could understand having scouts.
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When he escaped he took Dejah Thoris with him, since he ("A Gentleman of Virginia", as Burroughs described him) considered it the right thing to do. Should he have left her behind?
I see that as a different issue. This isn't about what we would do in the same situation, it's about what the author wrote and why.
But to humour you, if it were me, I'd determine first that she's not a shapeshifter. The I'd determine that she's not going eat me or lay her eggs in my dead eyeballs or something, being that she's an unknown alien species.
If she herself isn't a threat to my survival, then yeah, I have no real problem with helping her escape. Just like I'd have no problem helping a human-looking male escape, or a very nice kitty-cat/dog/octopus thing if I felt bad for it. I think you're asking if he shouldn't help her because she's female looking and attractive by his standards, I'm saying that shouldn't even enter the equation.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
No one else besides me, HK and Frem sees something that looks like a chain attached to the necklace? Or that the camera is very specifically focused on her breasts?
Looks like a long pendant to me. Fantasy illustration goes for over-the-top jewelry quite a bit. Once again, if you see heavy jewelry as bondage fetish gear, maybe that's you, not the picture.
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She throws herself on the floor? I really don't find self-abasement of females drawn by male artists that much better.
Sorry, Byte, but I'm beginning to think that you'd find any picture of a woman dressed in less than a burka offensive.
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Why have warriors if none of them stand a chance against the other baddies out in the environment? The only way that would work is if your people vastly outnumber the green men, so you can get away with a loss here or there, or if you have crazy reproduction rates.
You should actually read the book instead of making assumptions. Red Martians live in widely seperated cities, their surrounding areas, and along the canals. There are more of them than Green Martians and they're more technologically advanced. Mars, since it has no oceans, actually has more land than Earth, and Green Martians roam the dead sea bottoms between cities and canals where no Red Maritans live. Dejah Thoris was traveling over the sea bottoms in a small flier, crewed by ten or so warriors of Helium, to visit another city when the flier lost buoyancy and had to land on the sea bottom. They were found by the Thark tribe of Green Martians, several thousand, the Heliumite warriors were overwhelmed and killed, and Dejah Thoris captured.
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I see that as a different issue. This isn't about what we would do in the same situation, it's about what the author wrote and why.
The author wrote that the protagonist, who had unusual advantages due to his military experience and previous life in a 3 times higher gravity field, rescued a woman from people who were going to torture and kill her for their enjoyment. I'm not really sure why you have a problem with that.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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It's kind of the same problem I had with Avatar, there just is a tendency to give the male hero all the cool abilities. Or to make him unusually fit for the environment, even more so than the people who live and have adapted to that environment. The main reason why is that for the longest time these stories were primarily marketed to men, and because of the times they were written in. I realize I'm criticizing through the veil of history, but there's still a problem I perceive in that male figures are usually given much more focus than the female characters. And for the female characters the focus is often negative, oh, got to save princess metal thong AGAIN.
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Sorry, Byte, but I'm beginning to think that you'd find any picture of a woman dressed in less than a burka offensive.
Yes, but only if the camera focus is on her breasts. There's a head and a brain attached to the girls.
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You should actually read the book instead of making assumptions. Red Martians live in widely seperated cities, their surrounding areas, and along the canals. There are more of them than Green Martians and they're more technologically advanced. Mars, since it has no oceans, actually has more land than Earth, and Green Martians roam the dead sea bottoms between cities and canals where no Red Maritans live. Dejah Thoris was traveling over the sea bottoms in a small flier, crewed by ten or so warriors of Helium, to visit another city when the flier lost buoyancy and had to land on the sea bottom. They were found by the Thark tribe of Green Martians, several thousand, the Heliumite warriors were overwhelmed and killed, and Dejah Thoris captured
Okay, now we're talking! When Chris mentioned something about warriors, for some reason I got the impression of a pathetic scattered remnant making some kind of stand against the vastly superior green men. In that case, there are no plot holes in how the factions operate and how the Mars people survive despite the green men.
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Quote:Et tu, pizmo? Seriously? Seriously?
Originally posted by pizmobeach:Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
I suggest that if you see slave collars, abuse, and debasement fetishism in the image, perhaps it's your bias and not the image.
Thx Geezer. I have been thinking the same, (and for HK too). The image works like an ink blot.
Art Appreciation 101
Any work of art is a series of choices made by the artist. If "choice" is too philosophically loaded, let's say "selections." The artist selects a subject, a color, a scene, a gesture. These choices create the meaning of the work. Some meaning is chosen consciously, but much of the meaning is chosen subconsciously, the apparent result of aesthetic choices--"This is better, this is more beautiful, this feels right." At that point, human psychology comes into play. It isn't arbitrary or wholly subjective. The "ink blot" you mention is part of a psychological test. The psychologist administering the test gains real insights into the subject's psyche.
So in the case of this painting apparently illustrating "Tarzan and the Jewels of Opar" the painter chose the precise moment of the narrative to depict. He chose what to emphasize and what to dismiss. He chose the camera angle, the composition. He chose what emotions to describe. So what did he choose?
A man stands over a woman. She's neither relaxed nor composed, as if she's fallen. Her right fist closes around the pommel of a dagger--not a solid grasp on the dagger, but an improvised and imperfect attempt to close her hand around the hilt. Such a gesture is consistent with a person who feels threatened, a person who suddenly finds herself in proximity to a weapon and grabs for it. Geezer suggests that she's homicidal, but the artist doesn't depict homicidal intent in her face. The lower half of her face is relatively relaxed (a person about to attack would show tension in her jaw), her mouth vaguely protruding as in dejection. Let's be clear: if the artist wished to show that she had homicidal intent he could have, but didn't. If he wanted to show that she was planning to leap up and stab him he would have shown her with a firm grip on the dagger, but he didn't. Her brow is creased, but not creased with the tension of aggressive intent, but that of pain or sorrow. And of course, tears stream down her face. Her hand shows that she has not entirely given up, but her face shows that she knows she is beaten.
The man stands over her, relaxed, not facing her, but turning his head to look down. He's barely even concerned with her. His expression is neutral, his slightly creased brow reflecting some vague interest perhaps, perhaps mistrust, but not much else.
So, we can see that the man is not there to aid the woman. Her fall, her pain, do not move him.
The artist did not choose a moment of action, of clear conflict between the two. He chose a moment after the conflict. The moment the woman knows she has lost. The moment, really, of her humiliation. Tarzan stands, impassive and disconnected while she suffers.
What else? Of course the figures are nearly naked and extraordinary physical specimens. There is certainly sexuality in the air. What kind of sexual encounter is the artist inviting us to imagine? Nothing good, I'd say. The man dominates the woman. The woman cries. She fears for her life, but knows she has lost.
To not see a rape implied is to be willfully obtuse, or simply numb to the human situation depicted in the painting.
If you look with empathy at these figures, the first thing you see is the woman's striking tear streaked face and the man's indifference. If you look at the picture without empathy, if you objectify the figures, then, sure, it's just a sexy picture of two glistening, nearly naked, provocative bodies.
If any part of your awareness is uncomfortable with the scene, Geezer comforts you with the information that she's bad. Surely she deserves her suffering. And Tarza
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The slave collar, if you do see it, makes it worse.
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Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
The "ink blot" you mention is part of a psychological test. The psychologist administering the test gains real insights into the subject's psyche.
Interesting how you see the picture then.
I have read the story it relates to, and know the situation (which you apparently don't, as you mis-stated pretty completely what I've previously said about it). Your suppositions don't relate to the actual story at all.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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You don't seem to be understanding Geezer. I suppose it's because you're a fan of the works and don't want to see the dark side. And that's all fine, it's okay to be a fan of comic books and other medium where this kind of thing is prevalent. I mean, I actually LIKE comic books and the old timey adventure serials myself, though I prefer the episodes when the leading lady or evil villainess isn't around, because that usually annoys me. I much prefer reading about the hero than reading about often poorly written women or looking at pictures drawn to flatter the male gaze, so I try to avoid the depictions of the women in the medium.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MaleGaze
The thing is, with this picture in particular, it's not even what it's about in the context of the rest of the story. It's what the artist drew for that panel and WHY. HK is right, art is about symbolism, and that picture is laden with some troublesome and disturbing symbolism. Maybe it was subconscious on the part of the artist, maybe he wanted to draw that way because that's what he felt was the most interesting composition, or was told to sex up the picture so that issue would sell more copies, but the symbolism is there.
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Quote:I'm not familiar with the story at all, never claimed to be. I was talking about what's in the painting. Sorry you missed that point.
Originally posted by Geezer:Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
The "ink blot" you mention is part of a psychological test. The psychologist administering the test gains real insights into the subject's psyche.
Interesting how you see the picture then.
I have read the story it relates to, and know the situation (which you apparently don't, as you mis-stated pretty completely what I've previously said about it). Your suppositions don't relate to the actual story at all.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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