Sci-Fi - Fantasy Women (Split from John Carter of Mars thread)
POSTED BY: Bytemite
UPDATED: Sunday, May 9, 2010 06:52
VIEWED: 13376
PAGE 1 of 7
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Carter_of_Mars_(film)
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=8&t=43013
I was rather troubled by some of the images posted of the female leading lady in this series. She starts out as a slave woman who wears ridiculously scandalous outfits unsuitable for a slave, then I'm told her character becomes an Amazonian warrioress who wears ridiculously scandalous outfits unsuitable for a warrior and who can't fight.
Now, I've done a little additional research, and I understand that the original series goes back to 1917. It's a take directly from pulp novels and swashbucklers and penny dreadfuls, with the woman the damsel in distress and the manly man who saves her kingdom and wins her hand. Basically.
So some tolerance is obviously necessary, being this is before changing times, before a current couple generations of women who might be offended by a heroine who can't seem to do anything for herself and who is just around to provide eye candy.
But there exists a lingering problem in the Sci-Fi and Fantasy genre to objectify female characters to sell sex, which ultimately creates shallow, unsympathetic characters. This can also be somewhat demeaning for female sci-fi fans, as it is a very unfavourable representation of our gender.
In the interest of not highjacking the other thread any more than I already have, I thought I might split this conversation off, so fans of this series and movie can continue to enjoy and appreciate the fun aspect of it, without the more critical aspect I introduced. And that way we can keep discussing this, as Chris and I have been continuing this conversation via PM.
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It begins... For some reason this picture is labeled Tarzan, so I'm almost wondering if I've been taken in by a prank by our male user base, in which case, pretty good, guys, but I still think there's some points to be made here.
Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Metal pasties?
Metal pasties.
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Yeah. I prefer straight nudity.
But, PG13- what can ya do?
Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Nudity might be better because at least then it might be slightly artistic. Metal pasties just makes the women more objectified fantasy/sci-fi erotica, it's like the next step up from a chainmail bikini in tackiness and complete nonfunctionality of wardrobe. Leopard metal pastie princess doesn't strike me as "Amazonian" but rather "ornamental, decorative, and useless" which only furthers anti-female stereotypes in the genre.
The damn slave chain hanging from her collar doesn't help matters.
I mean, whoever drew that, do you think they were intending to draw attention to the sadness and despair in her face, or the overly-sexualized look of her body? And then, even more troubling, is her crying and slave collar supposed to APPEAL on some level to some abuse fetish?
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
The guys in the comic I read based on it wore as little, measured in inches of fabric. I would like to see sexual objectification equally distributed between the beautiful males AND females.
EQUALITY NOW!!!!
(cont)Select to view spoiler:
She starts out as a slave & potential execution before John Carter frees her by killing the due that hit her in the courtroom;
and no one wears much clothes on Mars- it too warm.
Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Okay then. It's still kinda troublesome, you understand. That picture doesn't scream "feel my pain and abuse" like an emaciated imprisoned slave on death row would suggest. It instead says "lust over me and my unbelievable body that's perfect and desirable despite all I've been through."
(cont)
--EQUALITY NOW!!!!
Sure. Functional clothing for everyone.
I'm just offended by how sexualized the woman here seems to be by it, to the detriment of her backstory and emotions.
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Well, I didn't post it, and I wouldn't have because Deejah is TOO voluptuous & John is TOOOOO muscular IMO. There's a bit of a food shortage on Mars at that point.
In the book she was totally naked. in fact, most but the warriors were.
There will be coverage in the movie though, PG13, remember?
Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Yeah, looks like plenty of sexual objectification for both sexes - maybe we should just enjoy it?
Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
It's not just the clothing, but how it's used. Even in the picture Chris just posted, the guy is armed and striking a heroic pose, and the girl is behind him and seeming to recoil, like a damsel in distress, and you tell me now, as I suspected, that she becomes one of the warriors and that she is supposed to be amazonian.
A loincloth may expose a lot of flesh on the guys, but it doesn't have the overt meaning that pasties and a slave collar do.
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
--Like a damsel in distress
She IS!!! On Mars, a woman is no match for Green Men; John retains all his Earthly strength being raised on a planet with a higher gravity, therefore he IS a heroic figure on that planet!!!
Byte- please read the first novel at least before passing judgement. Sure, lusty pulp fiction, but does it bother you when Tarzan's Jane wears a skin toga or bikini in the movies?
It's all in fun, M'lady!
(cont)
You must absolutely *HATE* Avatar for it's naked *pussycat* vibe...
Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
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To HK: That's interesting. Not being a man, it sounds all a little bit too Freudian to me. I have a little bit of trouble believing all men are emotionally stunted and have mommy issues that they project on woman in the form of misogyny. Surely if there is any validity to this then doesn't society at large have a bigger role in influencing gender roles, as it itself influences the parents (and the mother)? I admit that for males, to cement gender role the child must be "detached" from the initial strong mother imprint and identify her as the other, but this is REINFORCED by all the other women AND all the other MEN. It's very similar to the annoying garbage I had to resist all through my childhood where all the adults around me would insist that I "act like a lady." Likewise, I assume all boys are told to "be/act like a man." Neither of those MEAN anything! They're arbitrary and unqualifiable!
Partially this is why gender roles bother me, but seeing as how they are considered normative and I'm aberrant, I must have some degree of tolerance for gender roles. I'd just like to see positive qualities and actions more evenly distributed among gender in a representation of more modern, real life roles. Except historical fiction, for obvious reasons, and possibly some forms of historical fantasy if there's good reason for it.
This is why I like Firefly. The females run a wide spectrum of traits, but even the most demure and meek female characters in Firefly (Kaylee, Inara, River-kinda) are able to contribute in a fight or in solving a problem.
However, I do agree that definitely sex and appearance is used as a distraction for unfulfilled deeper emotional needs. And in stories marketed to men, it's used as a cheap plot trick to avoid having deep characters with meaningful relationships.
To an extent, our society's idea of "love" and "romance" is the female side of this pool. No really, the way women are pushed into finding-true-love/get-married/have-babies puts a lot of unnecessary pressure on them, almost to the point of obsession. This can be as much of a distraction to be in tune with who they are deep down and their emotions, as the cultural sex fixation might be a distraction for men.
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Broads are people too. 
Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."
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Indeed.
Also, "broad" is a fun-word, especially when I'm feeling less politically correct than when I started this conversation.
It was the metal pasties, they took over my MIND. @_@
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Maybe it would help if you imagine Kevin James and Roseanne Barr in those outfits.
"It was the metal pasties, they took over my MIND. @_@"
Now I'm thinking of ampersand pasties... I'm just as God made me!
Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com
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The amount of visible flesh proposed is unnecessary no matter who is wearing the clothing. Increasing the amount of visible flesh is less than helpful.
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Actually, my first reaction to HKCav's posting was more of an "Oh, so THAT is why I don't react like most men..."
Cause... well, I don't, not to that.
And while what he said there made a lot of sense, they're also aiming for the two for one special cause it does hook the natural protective instinct of less messed up males, something that is as far as I understand partially hardwired by nature as a propagation of the species element.
There's a scene in braveheart that cost me a television, cause of that - when the main characters wife meets her end, and in the fashion it happens, caused me to reflexively chuck a nearby heavy object at the sumbitches head, which unfortunately happened to be an outdated power supply, and ka-wham, and I needed a new TV, bleh.
So my reactions are prolly very different than most, and despite how one feels about gender roles, it *is* true that both inherently and genetically women have a stronger bent toward nuturing - but like all stereotypes, one's mileage may vary depending on the individual, and men are every bit as capable should they overcome stupid, outdated, chauvanistic bullshit in order to do so - or in my case, never have it applied in the first place.
My mother never bothered with religious or social instruction, it was wasted on me to begin with cause I would do what I would do, and she was more focused on teaching survival skills in the very short periods of time we did have, and due to my sisters utter indifference to such instruction (which has bit her on the ass over and over for twenty some years now) I got taught all the "girl" skills as well, which *have* served me well, so my opinion on gender roles is a sneer and a snicker, cause some helpless "macho" jerk who cannot cook, clean, or care for himself needs a mommy, not a wife - he's not a whole person and never will be, and this is not acceptable, no more than a woman who cannot do minor household repairs or simple automotive maintainence.
That is, of course, an ideal - the fundamental basis of a relationship is sharing of skills, and each backstopping the others weaknesses, which mighta worked in the fifties with traditional general roles, but not in the modern era, one should AT LEAST be minimally competent enough to survive on ones own, cause most relationships unbalanced that way are doomed from the start.
Anyhow, thing is, gender roles are bullshit, and imma point this out as empirical evidence.
For whatever reasons, underneath that cold misanthopric rage and violent bent, behind all the walls held up against a hostile society gone rabid, y'all *DO* by now realize the true nature behind it is a nurturing one, compassion, tolerance, healing and teaching - generally a "female" aspect, the yin to the yang, the shadow to the light, and yet, it doesn't come from weakness, but from strength, something Ghandi tried to explain to a planet full of idiots.
Of course, if that don't convince ya, all those MMOs ?
The various clans and guilds I've dealt with call me the one-hit-wonder, cause there's really only one job/skillset I am good at, but I am DAMNED good at that one.
White Mage/Cleric/Healer.
Hell, even in Eve Online, a game no one could mistake for anything but Dystopian, I've got the Mama Bear, a *heavily* shield-armor tanked battleship that's kitted out with repair units and drones to keep "my kids" in the fight no matter how ugly it gets, and she has a few rude surprises for the unwary as well.
(Oh, were you GOING somewhere ? not anymore!)
Which is also reflected in my choice of heros, many of whom are female or display a nuturing aspect, desite being quite capable of stomping some ass, but rather than a thinly veiled gender swap, they are as supremely female as many heros are supremely male, and quite capable of solving matters without violence if possible - Captain Tylor is a good example of the latter, with his instinctive zen/judo philosophy, but if you wanna see a real deconstruction of gender roles in a brutally realistic way, watch Black Lagoon and the interplay between Revy a
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I'm a little late to this discussion and I want to admit that I didn't read everything that was quoted from the previous thread, but I read most of it and skimmed the rest. Please don't hate me for this.
Point I'd like to make is this, I have to agree that the picture above is incredibly degrading to woman and I don't think arguing that sex sells is a valid reason for denigrating half the people on the planet. I'm sure if you had a nuclear bomb you could find someone to sell it to for a lot of money, doesn't mean it's right.
However, as a dude, I find the veiny, 'roided out man in the leopard print banana hammock offensive and degrading as well.
But sexuality isn't the problem, it's all about how it is done and there is nothing wrong with a woman showing or even using her sexuality in a story or TV show. It's realistic and to a degree empowering (I wouldn't hop on board with the feminists that argue strippers are empowered, but I do see where they're coming from). Just look at what Whedon did with Firefly. A huge feminist, Joss did more than just make a bunch of strong, intelligent kick ass female characters, that'd just be Charlie's Angels. What he did was make real female characters. Zoey the smart fighter and River the troubled fighter but you also have Inara who uses her sexuality and wits to her advantage (and shows a fair amount of skin in the series) and then there's Kaylee who isn't afraid of her sexuality and is in a profession typically relegated to men.
Also, look at the Sixes from BSG. More often than not they are scantily clad and using their sexuality as a means of getting their way but they are almost always well-rounded and sympathetic characters.
I personally feel the most recent affront in the sci-fi world to strong female characters was the re-dub of Uhura. In the original series, despite the short skirt, she was a respected member of the crew, a strong witty woman who, especially in the movies, was not afraid to fight or use her sexuality to her advantage. In the new movie, though, Uhura was relegated to the relationship interests of Kirk and Spock and had no other usefulness as a character. She was the only female character in the film and she was a love interest whose camera time was subject to the crudest forms of the male gaze. Talk about Roddenberry rolling over in his grave.
------------------------
I pray for one last landing,
on the globe that gave me birth.
Let me rest my eyes on the fleecy skies
and the cool, green hills of Earth.
http://www.blogiversity.org/blogs/dmi/default.aspx
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Oh, which reminds me, since this was brought up in another thread. On MMOs: I never got to play more than a little while into Mabinogi when it was first released, so I can't say what it's like later on, or if some of the special classes or pets unbalanced it any, or if the player base has become jerks. What I do remember was a fun battle system where you carefully chose your actions and reactions, and a world that was well populated with quests and backstories, and the way people would gather in town to listen to other people's musical compositions.
The first character after you make an account with Nexus is free, you can buy special starting characters and other characters and certain pets from the store. I tried to delete my first character because I'd made her too old to get a lot of the benefits of the growing up level ups, and it took so long for her to delete that I never did find out if I had to buy a new character after that, so watch out for that.
I had to remove Mabinogi, it's 9 gb without any of the expansions... Though I might be able to put it on that one computer that isn't being used, and I am going to have to look for another MMO since my friend's world of warcraft gamecard runs out soon.
Anyway, it sounds to me like your kind of MMO, it's fairly lighthearted feeling and it's an export from a Korean programming company, so it's got that cute anime look. Atmospherically, I might call it similar to Maple Story or RO, but it doesn't have a class system.
Okay, so back on to the meat of your post.
I think you get exactly what I'm saying, but from a male-rejecting the gender role direction instead of the female-rejecting the gender role direction.
There are differences between the genders, like white brain matter versus grey brain matter (though we don't know exactly what they do, percentages are definitely different, at least in most men and women). Size-wise, women also tend to be smaller, though that does mean we can be quicker. Whether that can make up for the size and weight difference is probably all in how you apply it. And here you say nurture versus protectiveness as hardwired traits; maybe, though I'm not convinced the two are mutually exclusive. I'm also dubious about the oft-cited muscle-to-fat difference: sometimes I think it's social, and boys are just more encouraged to be active, and sometimes I think it might be genetic.
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