Real World Event Discussions

Cheney crawls out from under his rock...again...

POSTED BY: Niki2
UPDATED: Thursday, October 2, 2025 17:35
VIEWED: 5955
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CHRISISALL

Monday, February 15, 2010 4:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

Waiting...

Heh, me too...

*whistles*

The laughing Chrisisall

NIKI2

Monday, February 15, 2010 5:32 PM

Gino, do you truly believe Cheney acted “under orders”? I tend to think Cheney, Rove, and their cronies really RAN Dumbya---maybe efficiently enough that he didn’t know they were doing it. But I don’t think Dumbya was the power in the throne, by any means, except when he was truly bent on his own agenda (Iraq?).

Frem: On Carter, a resounding “YES!” I’ve always admired the man...a good man but either too weak or too naïve, never been sure which...or both. But everything he’s done since then, !

Anti, “yes” and “yes”...”perpetual war for perpetual peace” I like that! I disagree however that the foreign policy never changes...perhaps the GOALS (tho’ even there I have doubts), but the methods; the difference between Dumbya’s crowd bullying the UN and the rest of the world and Obama’s respect is vast, and because the two administrations were back to back, makes the contrast all the more dramatic.

I tend to think that whatever ADMINISTRATION is in power doesn’t necessarily drive our “foreign policy” (if you want to call it that). I think the Pentagon is the power, the military has its agenda, and no President has been powerful enough to really stand up to them.

Right on about

Quote:
we also havent declared a war through congress since WW2 either. thats whats so sinister about it.. we're basically performing police actions on a global scale. in their genius theyve somewhat created a loophole that allows them to take such extreme measures under whatever pretense they choose, and under the guise of 'national security'. take for example the patriot act: if we are constantly in a state of war, perpetual warfare, when would we expect to retire the legislation?

I was shocked to find we’ve technically been in a “state of war” since KOREA...you’re right, it’s a perpetual situation now. It’s scary, the loophole they’ve found (or created?), exploited and made permanent.

We can’t “all” agree that

Quote:
that our very presence there, regardless of our intentions, creates this resentment and fuels this hatred

because that would include me, and I can’t in good conscience agree with that. I post a lot on Afghanistan because it’s dear to my heart; dunno if you’ve been around since I arrived, but I lived there, and I don’t agree with that. Yes, as long as we’re seen as conquerors and occupiers, you’re right, but I don’t believe it’s our very presence, it’s how it’s being USED. So we’ll have to agree to disagree on that point.
.
As to the paragraph after that, a resounding ABSOFRIGGINLOOTELY! You nailed it! There’s a good book on that, damn, I can’t remember the name—actually there are probably a number of them, about how our dealings with the world brought 9/11 down on our own heads. Simplistic, admittedly, but our government(s) DO own a lot of the blame for the hatred of us around the world.

At this time I’m pretty damned left, so I can say that no, we’re not all silent, by a long shot. We’re quite vocal, just not protesting publicly much...YET! The sop that he’d expand troops but get us out has a lot of people waiting and watching. It doesn’t matter who has us In a war, we’re watching. If what you said was true, gee, I guess I didn’t take part in ANY protests of the Vietnam War, since we here in SF were part of the May 2, 1964 first major student demonstration against the war hundreds of students march through Times Square in New York City, while another 700 march in San Francisco, and our “beloved” Kennedy started it and Democrat Johnson was in office. Remember those? I wasn’t in that one, but subsequent ones, so your theory is fallacious.

Currently it’s less muted, awaiting developments, but it’s started and will enlarge as time goes by. Supposedly Iraq is counting down, and there’s the pomise to get out of Afghanistan, but no, we don’t trust it You must have missed this one, shor

GINOBIFFARONI

Tuesday, February 16, 2010 6:46 PM

When he was Secretary of Defense... Yes

when he was VP no

Perhaps protests would fire up more if the US reinstated the draft ?

As it is it seems the dire state of the US economy may be enough to produce cannon fodder, but either a draft or a war tax to pay for these fiascos up front would show what support really exists,,,

" that our very presence there, regardless of our intentions, creates this resentment and fuels this hatred

because that would include me, and I can’t in good conscience agree with that. I post a lot on Afghanistan because it’s dear to my heart; dunno if you’ve been around since I arrived, but I lived there, and I don’t agree with that. Yes, as long as we’re seen as conquerors and occupiers, you’re right, but I don’t believe it’s our very presence, it’s how it’s being USED. So we’ll have to agree to disagree on that point. "

The problem I think with your point here Niki, is you are looking at things as how they were back in the 50's. The US is viewed VERY differently overseas nowdays, and to find that goodwill again you might need to leave for awhile. Fix some of the other bad policys you have across the middleeast, then re-engage in a more positive way.

I thought maybe after his Cairo speech Obama understood that, now I doubt it

Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

NIKI2

Tuesday, February 16, 2010 6:59 PM

Yes, I had hope Obama understood at first too, but I doubt Obama or anyone in our government understands it; Obama shows more respect and less bullying, but either he's not paying attention or he's too weak to get the military to do what they SHOULD. Either way, it's a shame.

No, I'm not looking at it from the 50s, in most cases. I put up an article by someone working there who wrote about the openness and welcoming of the AFGHAN PEOPLE clearly, and it matches what I saw when there.

Quote:
Fix some of the other bad policys you have across the middleeast, then re-engage in a more positive way.

Absofrigginlootely, it's what I've been saying about Afghanistan, and it pertains to all the mideast, unquestionably. I doubt it will happen, however.

I know the view of us by the world has changed a lot because of the eight years of bullying by Dumbya's administration...and before that because of our arrogance in general. I continue to believe, however, that if it were gone about in a different way, AFGHANISTAN's view of us would change. SOME are glad to have us there even now, as interviews have shown, and I maintain once again that if our being there were to be done with RESPECT, it would be different. They've always wanted our help, that hasn't changed in 60 years, but they don't want what we're doing now, for the most part.

KWICKO

Tuesday, February 16, 2010 7:19 PM

Bush and the neocons have this view of the world as a big, ugly, scary place where the people are all out to get us, and besides, they're dirty and "don't speak the language". And because of that paranoia, we spend almost as much on our military and defense as the entire rest of the world combined. That's some deep-seated fear right there, to be THAT worried that everybody in the world is out to kill you.

And if they are, it really should say something about our policies, shouldn't it?

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

NIKI2

Tuesday, February 16, 2010 8:46 PM

Right ON! That's the core of Cheney's attitude completely. Thank you!

ANTIMASON

Tuesday, February 16, 2010 10:06 PM

i think we could solve this whole dispute, if we just had REAL free trade. instead of nation building, a permanant military presence, undeclared wars, foreign aid... just trade with them! return to the days of colonial style trade, export what makes us great, our innovation and freedom of thought. if they want to trade, fine, if they dont, leave them alone! it sounds simplistic, but its probably more productive. wouldnt that be a better form of pursuasion, to open their hearts, at the grass-roots, then to constantly try and force military and political changes?

the opposition movement in Iran, just at the grass-roots, is destined to overthrow the mullahs and Ahmadinejad. the media made a big deal about this because, what are they using? blackberrys, cellphones, the internet. i know there are differences between Iran and say Afghanistan, but its the principle, isnt it? it makes more sense then sanctioning Iran, threatening Force.. something Obama is continuing to do. its just so counter-productive!

like this story..

Quote:
Hannah Devlin
London Telegraph
Tuesday, February 16th, 2010

Nato troops and their Afghan colleagues involved in Operation Moshtarak have suffered another blow after three more civilians were killed in the campaign against the Taliban.

The deaths – in three separate incidents – come after two US missiles struck a house on the outskirts of the town of Marjah on Sunday, killing 12 people, half of them children. Three others killed in the house were identified as Taliban fighters by local authorities.

rest of the story- http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/7248301/Ope
ration-Moshtarak-three-more-civilians-killed-in-Afghanistan.html

.. and for what? i dont think the taliban have even been involved in a terrorist attack on US civilians, have they? whatever happened to pursuing al-qaeda, the ones who attacked us? instead we just continue meddling, just as we have for the last half century.

if we declared war, voted up or down in congress, went to war with the full backing of the people, this wouldnt be happening! Iraq probably wouldnt have happened, but it would have been over a whole lot sooner! if the people were genuinely threatened with their lives and safety, we'd go in and completely lay waste to somebody!

its because we dont declare war that we have this debacle of Gitmo, torture, airport body scanners.. and these civilian terrorist trials. we've created this mess, and now we're more vulnerable for it

i think youre right Niki about the Pentagon, the military industrial complex, overpowering the president. but like Bush, Obama, in his heart of hearts, is just not willing to make a stand, and change the entire foreign policy. if that was his position, he would stand by it, career be damned. so hes a puppet, theres no other deduction from that, thats the shame of it. the rest of the differences between him and Bush are symantics, just re-arranging deck chairs.

theres obviously a bigger objective, and its not clear to us because we arent being told the truth(openly). i personally think its to create a global central bank, world currency, to bring every nation under the NWOs submission

GINOBIFFARONI

Tuesday, February 16, 2010 10:17 PM

I think you and Niki are right about Obama being controlled,

but I dont think it is the military doing it...

I would point at the CFR, AIPAC, and that bunch controlling things behind the scenes. They have much more influence than the Military, and definitely have an agenda that goes against what most people feel are their interests

Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

AURAPTOR

Tuesday, February 16, 2010 11:14 PM

Dick Cheney is unquestionably the best VP this nation has had in the past 40 years.

And that's a fact.

Director: Bureau of Bigfoot Affairs

STORYMARK

Tuesday, February 16, 2010 11:29 PM

Did anybody else catch that? I heard a vague whisper, a nothingness really. I'll I could make out was how stupid it was....

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."