Episode order

POSTED BY: christhecynic
UPDATED: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 21:10
VIEWED: 9279
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EVILTOBZ

Wednesday, June 30, 2004 2:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiversBounty:
...But since Joss ain't here, either arguement could be correct, so I shrug and say, "Yay for us."

or you could try and talk some of the browncoats who are going to be extras in serenity into cornering the jossmeister and bombarding him with such questions :)

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eviltobz - that's lowercase gorram it!

RHUTTNER

Wednesday, June 30, 2004 2:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiversBounty:
Fair enough. :-) But I offer, given Jayne's reactions to River in "Ariel" (especially where I always believed after they were captured that Jayne knew that she knew he had betrayed her) and again in "Trash" when he was temporarily paralyzed, he kind of figured something was up with her and said so off-handedly in "The Message," but not seriously meaning it.

Since I was mostly focusing on The Message I didn't really consider mentioning specifics in Trash. But since you reminded me, and to be complete--Jayne's look of fear to River saying 'I can kill you with my brain' could be a result of the events in OiS, further suggesting that Trash comes after OiS.

In terms of Ariel, I don't think Jayne knew that River knew he betrayed them. I will offer something here that actually contradicts part of what I originally said regarding Jayne's comment in The Message: I think that River's rant when they were captured was her reading his mind and talking about something tragic in his childhood. This is why he was pissed and wanted her to shut up. If this is true, then Jayne could reasonably realize on his own that she can read minds in The Message. BUT keep in mind we are talking about Jayne. Its hard for him to reasonably realize that his hat is on his head. So its hard to imagine that he would be able to figure it out his own.

As for Inara's actions in Trash and The Message, I agree with you. It does not seem from either Inara's or Mal's actions/conversations that she has announced her intention to leave. This is why we really need ep 16. You never know, production number 16 may have actually aired prior to Trash to explain why she hasnt left.

Are you an official Browncoat? If not, go sign up gorram it! http://browncoats.serenitymovie.com/serenity/?u=rhuttner

PURPLEBELLY

Wednesday, June 30, 2004 3:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rhuttner:
Are you an official Browncoat? If not, go sign up gorram it!

Official Browncoat? Sounds like a cabalistic plot to me. Perhaps the independent spirited fans of Firefly could be tagged Purplebellys now?

ECGORDON

Wednesday, June 30, 2004 5:24 PM

Quote:
From RHUTTNER:
The main problem and the root of the order controversy is that in The Message Jayne refers to River as a "mind-readin' genius", yet in OiS the subject of her being able to read minds is first brought up, and Jayne was skeptical about it. So it doesn't make sense that he would come up with that idea on his own, then doubt it when its openly discussed.

Quote:
From RIVERSBOUNTY:
Fair enough. :-) But I offer, given Jayne's reactions to River in "Ariel" (especially where I always believed after they were captured that Jayne knew that she knew he had betrayed her) and again in "Trash" when he was temporarily paralyzed, he kind of figured something was up with her and said so off-handedly in "The Message," but not seriously meaning it.

The whole crew knew something was up with River along those lines as early as "Safe," since Simon has to have told them why they were being threatened with burning at the stake.

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

CHRISTHECYNIC

Wednesday, June 30, 2004 5:40 PM

The problem I had, or one of the problems, is that "I can kill you with my brain" seems a direct reference to "Killing with math" in OiS.

Also I got the impression that Jayne didn’t like the idea of reading minds because he was afraid of being found out. Further I didn’t think that he would bring up him wanting them off the ship after not just Mal but also Simon and River knew about what he did.

SHINYSEVEN

Wednesday, June 30, 2004 5:56 PM

The *audience* sees River reading minds in Bushwhacked, and the *crew* sees her reading Badger's mind in...ummm, sorry, not sure which episode they were sitting around in the cargo bay not-getting-nekkid and trying to figure out a diversion, so I think it's pretty much on record long before OiS.

And "killing with her mind" is not a bad description of River's radar in War Stories (which probably has to be after Ariel because that was where they got the money to buy Wash).

LIZ

Wednesday, June 30, 2004 6:00 PM

that was "Shindig" ... but i read the scene with Badger as her picking up on and placing the accent and then deducing or intuiting (is that a word?) the rest, not reading his mind (though looking back she probably did that too).

RHUTTNER

Wednesday, June 30, 2004 6:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:
The problem I had, or one of the problems, is that "I can kill you with my brain" seems a direct reference to "Killing with math" in OiS.

Thats what I meant when I said that Jayne's fear of River saying that is a result of what happened in OiS. So OiS would have to come before Trash for that to be the reason.

Quote:

Also I got the impression that Jayne didn’t like the idea of reading minds because he was afraid of being found out. Further I didn’t think that he would bring up him wanting them off the ship after not just Mal but also Simon and River knew about what he did.

Ooooh. Excellent point. I never considered that connection. And if that is indeed why he didn't like the idea of being read it would mean that OiS would have to come before Trash for the reason you said. Course we will probably never know what Jayne's motivation for saying that was.

BTW, my real opinion is that the production order is 'correct' so it would be OiS/T/TM. So its nice to have some new points to make for that opinion. Not that it really matters at this point. So thanks christhecynic.

Are you an official Browncoat? If not, go sign up gorram it! http://browncoats.serenitymovie.com/serenity/?u=rhuttner

KARENKAY99

Wednesday, June 30, 2004 10:08 PM

why we still arguin' what's already been decided? joss put the dvd's out in the order he wanted them. i like it.
remember they had to refilm the bit on OIS between inara and mal coz HOG hadn't aired. no one knew she was going to leave when OIS was shown. the bit on the dvd is the original film.
sounds like they were jumping through all kind of hoops to make fox happy and it just confused things.
and i totally agree the jayne remark in OIS was like you mean she can really read minds? i mean i thought she could, but really? i think his remark in TM was meant to be funny.

"They say the snow on the roof is too heavy. They say the ceiling will cave in. His brains are in terrible danger."

CHRISTHECYNIC

Thursday, July 1, 2004 2:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by karenkay99:
why we still arguin' what's already been decided?

Can you imagine a better thing to argue over?

Quote:
joss put the dvd's out in the order he wanted them.

I used to talk about a book I was writing here. It was a piece of crap. I have a new book, it's not so much bad. For one thing the grammar is better than the previous sentence. Where am I going with this? Well I wrote the book, that means that I am god there. I know everything that is going on in the characters’ heads. Someone had the audacity to tell me what was really happening. As if I didn’t know.

The only reason that they could do this was because the book was better (than the other), the characters complex, the world well thought out. The better something is the less control the author has over interpretation.

Firefly is too good to be limited to a “What Joss says goes” attitude. If you think it goes better one way you watch it that way, if you feel the need to tell others why you do.

Quote:
no one knew she was going to leave when OIS was shown.

That's not quite true, as in not at all. A lot of people knew exactly what she was talking about when it aired.

When we found out she said, “I’m leaving” at the end of the pervious episode all made sense. After all first she say’s she’s leaving, then she talks about leaving. Then events transpire that make her not leave. What events? Well first thing she says is that they haven’t been to a decent planet, no place to drop her off.

If it weren’t for the fact the scene was reshot, and we found out about it, there would have been no doubt about the order and it would not be the one on the DVDs.

With the reshot scene it obviously is different, but now there are two versions of the scene, makeing two versions of the order.

Everyone is right.

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