Dollhouse relationship with Firefly

POSTED BY: KingDavid
UPDATED: Monday, April 18, 2011 23:36
VIEWED: 15638
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GWEK

Wednesday, February 3, 2010 2:51 AM

Right, because he brilliantly knew exactly what TYPE of ship (and crew) Simon would be looking for. :)

Look, just go with it--it'd be a cool scene! :P

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

FEARTHEBUNNYMAN

Wednesday, February 3, 2010 3:17 AM

lol hey, what the hell, right? you could fanwank it...we never actually saw simon make the deal, so maybe he met up with kaylee, then took off to show wash where the box was at, and THEN kaylee called book Grandpa ;)

GWEK

Wednesday, February 3, 2010 3:35 AM

If Joss can reverse-engineer Simon into River's rescue (which completely undercuts his character development and who he was at the time), why not?

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

FEARTHEBUNNYMAN

Wednesday, February 3, 2010 4:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:
If Joss can reverse-engineer Simon into River's rescue (which completely undercuts his character development and who he was at the time), why not?

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

you know,I've heard other people say that, but my first time viewing the series it made perfect sense to me that Simon did that. It still did after repeated viewings. It did for my bro as of this morning too (he just woke up at 5am to watch the movie after blowing thru the series the past two days - yay!). and obviously Joss was more than comfortable with it, so I'ma go ahead and disagree with you here ;) (but always with respect)

GWEK

Wednesday, February 3, 2010 4:40 AM

Joss said that he only did it because he had to do it to make the movie work.

I don't doubt Simon's motivations, but the Simon that we see at the beginning of the series (indeed, quite possibly the Simon we see at the END of the series) would not be capable of pulling it off. Also, while Simon could have been lying, it directly contradicts what information that we have in the series.

In the context of the movie, I buy it. In the context of the overall FIREFLY canon... not so much.

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

FEARTHEBUNNYMAN

Wednesday, February 3, 2010 5:23 AM

Ha, well at the risk of derailing the thread - does that bother anyone here? - my take is

Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:
Joss said that he only did it because he had to do it to make the movie work.

True, but he also said he was comfortable with the "fan-wank", didn't have a problem with it while he was writing it, and didn't think it conflicted with Simon's characterization (familiar with the Q&A you're referencing although it has been awhile since I read it). Comfortable enough he was willing to put it in the first feature film he ever directed about his "baby"!

Quote:
I don't doubt Simon's motivations, but the Simon that we see at the beginning of the series (indeed, quite possibly the Simon we see at the END of the series) would not be capable of pulling it off.

Disagree (respectfully) with this here too...in the very first episode, he's on the run from his own government with massively valuable "property" stolen from this all-powerful government/military, picks a ship on a border planet "because it looks disreputable" (in the orig. script), and later proceeds to threaten the ship's unhinged captain (while there are guns drawn on him), then FLINGS himself off a 12 foot railing onto an armed federal agent, and at the end of the ep...is still remarkably composed, willing to face said unhinged captain head on, and all with his baby sister as his primary concern. Later in just the fourth episode, he willingly climbs up on a stake surrounded by batshiat insane villagers, to be BURNED ALIVE with his sister (after unsuccessfully trying to face them down/fight them off - a whole village). We also know that before he even got on the ship, he had willingly left his family, entered "blackout zones" (which sound like the kind of places normal people usually avoid like hell), worked with anti-government revolutionaries, gave almost all his fortune to them, while keeping everything hidden from his friends (if he had any), family, co-workers and his employers....this is a guy who at the time of the rescue, would have had absolutely nothing to lose, and nothing to gain but getting his sister. He's obviously not particularly trusting (or dumb) so it makes sense he would be agreeable to going in himself and not allowing someone to retrieve her without him. It also makes sense that the "underground movement" wouldn't want to risk one of their own (who might potentially have a lot of intel on them that could be gotten if they'd been caught) to be caught in there - they've got Simon's money, probably coached him some, told him what he needed to know, and not much else, and so they sent HIM in. And if he made it out they'd get him out and if not...well. They probably had other anti-gov projects they were working on too (was looking fwd to finding out more about them, eventually). He used non-lethal force in the rescue too - which I think may be the sticking point with Simon, although he was pretty quick to take up arms on the irritable captain's behalf in War Stories, and willing to come up with a plan to jump a bunch of armed thugs even earlier then that, in Shindig. It also all explains how he was able to come up with such a detailed and security-bypassing plan in Ariel - almost like he already knew what he was doing, no?

Quote:
Also, while Simon could have been lying, it directly contradicts what information that we have in the series.

In the series, the only time he was "lying" was in the pilot when he was explaining his story to - what was to him - a bunch of criminals. Who didn't like him. There was plenty of room between the lines there, that wouldn't even necessitate him lying. Just mental reservation. And as far as River being psychic was concerned, even assuming he DIDN'T have some idea what was done to her (which I obviously reject) you really think he could have spent all that time with her, alone with her, and NOT known she was picking shiat up she had no way else of knowing? Again, Simon IS a genius (even a non-genius would figure it out) so I seriou

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Saturday, April 16, 2011 2:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1eyedcat:
I see deep connections between Firefly and Dollhouse, with Whedon reworking many of the same themes. So, in addition to the mind manipulation theme, in Firefly, Serenity is a haven, on the outskirts of society and the law, for people who have reason to escape, presided over by a strong, paternalistic figure. Much the same can be said about the Dollhouse, but with much greater moral ambiguity.

Consider this, while casting aside the timeline:
There has been much discussion regarding Inara's reasons for boarding Serenity, and leaving Madrassa House. Would Inara in our time have volunteered for a Dollhouse contract?
Opinions?
Or expanded rationale?
Or should this be a seperate thread?

On the other hand, would any of the actives have tried to signal their brother in code to "help me" as River does at The Institute?

And would any of the actives Not have accepted an enrollment invitation to The Institute?

Can Topher implant a psychic talent/skill/sense into an active? Make a strong suggestion toward this goal?

BYTEMITE

Saturday, April 16, 2011 3:18 PM

I definitely see hints of possible thematic connections between the Guild and the Dollhouse.

Blue Sun is meant to be Rossum, so unless there's a connection to Blue Sun the Guild might not be all bad. However, I suspect there's aspects of it that aren't good, either, and Joss would've explored exploitation thematically through the Guild. Each companions' experience might be very case by case.

The two ideas that Dollhouse "actives" explore, the hyper competent and skilled side and the side that's sold out to rich men, seems to be split between River and Inara respectively. It's not impossible, though I doubt Inara went through anything near what River did.

On the other hand, in OMR Saffron is suggested to be a twisted version of a companion. Inara says that Saffron has been trained by "the Academy" and doesn't specify that she means the "Companion Academy." It's possible that when companions aren't training at their Guild houses, they have to take liberal education courses (Alliance indoctrination and monitoring), and it's at the same Academy River went to.

PIRATENEWS

Saturday, April 16, 2011 4:00 PM

There's another connection between Blue Sun and Rossum Corp.

In the recently discovered unbroadcast episodes of both FF and DH, one character was named Dick Cheney.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Target_(Dollhouse)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Most_Dangerous_Game

Quote:
Dick Cheney's Dollhouse

Given his many mishaps, I was in a charitable mood when I went to hear the man speak on Monday. He looked positively rosy, well-fed and had virtually no wrinkles on his face, even at close range. The cares that someone like him ought to have were not reflected in Dick Cheney's face.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,557670,00.html

Psychopaths don't have lines on their face, because they have no emotions to express. They also have no problem sleeping because they never have dreams nor nightmares.
youtube.com/watch?v=KlMwYoEScbE

Quote:
The Most Dangerous Game with Robert Hansen

Robert Hansen, a serial killer who was active in the early 1980s, would kidnap women and then release them in the Knik River Valley in Alaska. He would then hunt them, armed with a knife and a Ruger Mini-14 rifle. He worked as an assistant drill instructor at a police academy in Pocahontas, Iowa. He even broke several records, documented in the Pope & Young's book of world hunting records. On June 13, 1983, 17 year old Cindy Paulson went to the police after escaping from the cockpit of Hansen's Piper Super Cub, a set of handcuffs still dangling from one wrist. She told police that she had been offered $200 to pose for pictures before being abducted, raped, and sexually assaulted with the wooden handle of a hammer. She stated that she had worked one cuff loose, then fled on foot from the airplane's cockpit when Hansen was distracted while loading supplies. She claimed to have eluded Hansen until she was picked up by a passing truck on a nearby road and taken to the police. Supported by Paulson's testimony, Flothe and the police secured a warrant and searched Hansen's house on October 27, 1983, uncovering jewelry belonging to the victims, newspaper clippings about the murders and an array of firearms — including a semi-automatic .223-caliber Ruger Mini-14 rifle. They theorized that he began killing prostitutes around 1979. After paying a woman for her services, he would kidnap, torture, and rape her. He would then bind her and fly her out to his cabin in the Knik River Valley in his private airplane. Once he had found a suitably desolate location, he would release his victim on a river sandbar, stalk her and then kill her with a hunting knife or the Ruger carbine as she fled through the woods. When ballistics tests returned a match between bullets found at the crime scenes and Hansen's rifle, he entered into a plea bargain. He pled guilty to the four homicides the police knew about and provided details about his other victims in return for serving his sentence in a federal prison along with no publicity in the press. He confirmed the police theory of how the women were abducted, adding that he would sometimes let a potential victim go if she convinced him that she wouldn't report him to police, and indicated that he began killing as early as 1973. He showed investigators 17 gravesites in the Knik River Valley, 12 of which were unknown to the police. 11 remains of a probable 21 victims were exhumed by the police and returned to their families.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Most_Dangerous_Game
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Hansen

The Most Dangerous Game with Dick Cheney...
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=the+most+dange
rous+game+cathy+o'brien

RIONAEIRE

Monday, April 18, 2011 11:36 PM

Yeah, I see similar themes, but I don't think they're in the same verse.

As for Simon, I think that the series explanation for River's rescue makes more sense than the movie explanation, but that isn't one of the big problems I have with the movie, however it does highlight, to me, the fact that the movie is an imperfect specimen and should be taken with a grain of large-grained salt.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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