Sarah Palin Can't Name Any Founding Fathers!
POSTED BY: Niki2
UPDATED: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 23:06
VIEWED: 7011
PAGE 8 of 11
Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
I was trying to say that in general, people consider the signers as the "founding fathers". That's how people refer to them, as the ones who created the Constitution and our form of government.
Please stop. In the generally accepted historical terminology, the "Signers" were the people who wrote and signed the Declaration of Independence. The People who wrote and signed the Constitution were the "Framers". http://www.usconstitution.net/declarsigndata.html
http://www.usconstitution.net/constframedata.html
They are all "Founding Fathers" in any reputable historical source, along with other folk like Ethan Allen, Patrick Henry, Thomas Paine, John Jay, John Marshall, etc. who signed neither document but had quite a lot to do with American independence and the founding of the United States.
Quote:
To deny that is silly, in my opinion, given that the reference is made time and time again, recently by the Right as an indiction that Obama is--whatever they want him to be at the moment. C'mon, be it truth or otherwise, you can't tell me that all the bullshit that comes out nowadays about "not what the Founding Fathers (capitalized) meant for our country" refers to anyone but those who wrote the Constitution?
I mean - really - stop. Now you're citing right-wing propaganda as proof of what America believes?
It's a moot point anyway, since Washington presided over the Constitutional Convention and signed the Constitution. So even if you (and Glenn Beck, and the entire right-wing) consider the folks who wrote the Constitution to be the one-and-only, exclusive, accept-no-substitutes, dyed-in-the-wool, guaranteed authentic Founding Fathers, Washington is still one.
Quote:
As to "diverse", sorry, I don't consider a bunch of white males as being "diverse", whatever their differing politics may be. They all had similar basic beliefs and basic intent, and "diversity" in the form of writing the Constitution wiht recognition of women and other ethnicities as valid wasn't there, period.
If diversity applied only to sex, race and ethnicity, you'd be right. However, diversity can also apply to politics, philosophy, and opinion (among other things). In the 18th century the folks writing the Constitution were about as wide-ranging a group, politically and philisophically, as you were likely to get. Northerners, and Southerners; plantation owners and industrialists and bankers; folks who wanted a stong Federal government and those who wanted a loose confederation of states; slaveholders and those who wanted to free the slaves - sometimes the same people holding both views.
But answer this totally honestly, even if just to yourself. If someone asked you out of the blue to name your favorite, say, Supreme Court Justice or Speaker of the House, could you come up with a name and reason in a couple of seconds, or might you hem and haw a bit first?
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists 
Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"
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Quote:Geezer, stop. Government is her BUSINESS. She should know it like I know martial arts.
Originally posted by Geezer:
But answer this totally honestly, even if just to yourself. If someone asked you out of the blue to name your favorite, say, Supreme Court Justice or Speaker of the House, could you come up with a name and reason in a couple of seconds, or might you hem and haw a bit first?
By the way Geeze, what's your favourite lead strike?
ETA: I know; all of them.
The laughing Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Geezer, stop.
Why?
If Niki wants to prove who know's smarter about Washington being a Founding Father, her or Sarah Palin, who am I to prevent her?
BTW, without looking at the lists above, name ten Signers of the Declaration of Independence or ten Framers of the Constitution.
How many folks signed both?
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Playin' games & avoiding my question.
Bye.
The laughing Chrisisall
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Y'know, I've kinda gotta go with Geezer on this one. Washington IS a Founding Father. Hell, to a great number of people he is THE Founding Father, the ONE they all know before Jefferson, Adams (John and Samuel both!), Franklin, or even John Hancock (he of the overly large and flourish-y signature!).
Here's a quick excerpt from the Wiki entry:
Quote:
Most historians define the "founding fathers" to mean a larger group, including not only the Signers and the Framers but also all those who, whether as politicians or jurists or statesmen or soldiers or diplomats or ordinary citizens, took part in winning American independence and creating the United States of America. The eminent American historian Richard B. Morris, in his 1973 book Seven Who Shaped Our Destiny: The Founding Fathers as Revolutionaries, identified the following seven figures as the key founding fathers: Benjamin Franklin, George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, John Jay, James Madison, and Alexander Hamilton.
So, although this comes AFTER the Wiki bit about the Framers and the Signers, it still clearly includes Washington. Ask yourself this question, and see if it changes your view: Without George Washington to lead the Continental Army to victory, what exactly would the Founding Fathers have founded? For without Washington, there would BE no founding of this nation, because the Revolution would have been crushed, and every single one of the Founding Fathers would have been hanged as a traitor.
If that doesn't buy you entry into that exclusive company, I sure as hell don't know what does.
Like I said above, the funny isn't that she went with Washington as a founder, but that she went with the "all of them" line. Again.
Mike
Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde
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By the way, Geezer, the answer is "eight". ;)
Mike
Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde
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It is all a matter of perspective
PN:
Pslin:
Wulf:
Hero:
Chris:
Frem:
Niki:
Gino:
Everyone has their own idea,
If any of the original bunch were alive today... I doubt they could get themselves elected away
lmao
Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists
Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"
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Quote:Oh sure, about Washington. I just wish Geezer could answer my question. Hell, I don't think I can think of a time he hasn't answered a question of mine with anything but a question. I'm through trying to discuss anything to him. Back to jibes & insults, I guess.
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Y'know, I've kinda gotta go with Geezer on this one.
The laughing Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Geezer, stop. Government is her BUSINESS. She should know it like I know martial arts.
By the way Geeze, what's your favourite lead strike?
Okay. I'll address your question again.
First, knowing American history isn't, or shouldn't be, specialist knowledge for politicians alone. That being said, I doubt that most politicians, or citizens, could name more than five of either Signers or Framers, and would probably have trouble naming ten of the broadest pool of "Founding Fathers".
Second, Palin did answer Beck's question about her favorite Founder. She named George Washington(probably the most well-known and liked by the population at large) and cited, quite accurately, his disinclination to be involved in government, but willingness to serve for the greater good, as a reason he was her favorite.
Third, George Washington, by any criteria, WAS a Founding Father, dispite Niki's quibbles and circumlocutions, so the title of this thread is obviously incorrect.
Fourth, my favorite lead strike is a .308 caliber 200g Sierra MatchKing at 1000 yards.
My second favorite is a .451 cal. 260g hardcast lead flatnose at 50 yds.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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