Late to the party
POSTED BY: Cazaril
UPDATED: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 18:18
VIEWED: 7958
PAGE 3 of 3
Bytemite: I finished both my conversion of "The Verse in Numbers" into excel, and the fifth map (all that is left is a map that shows how the five main stars relate to each other)...
Bottom line... Location can not be the sole factor in categorizing the planets. The best example of this is Heinlein... Heinlein is a helioformed brown dwarf in orbit around Red Sun. In orbit around Heinlein are Triumph (Rim), Paquin (Border), Lazarus and Silverhold. With the exception of Lazarus, I have confirmed this arrangement through other sources. Now Triumph (the inner most world) is considered a Rim World, but Paquin (in the 2nd orbit) is considered to be a Border World.... So category by location makes no kinda sense.
StinkingRose: I ran across the Serenity RPG when I was looking for a miniature to use with BattleTech. I finally broke down and used a gift card I got for Christmas to buy it, and it is a great look into the 'Verse. I wouldn't go as far as to say everything in the book is canon, but I do believe they pulled from every available source (possibly even Whedon himself), to be as accurate as possible. If you're just a Firefly/Serenity fan, it makes a nice companion guide. If you're a Role-Player, then it has one of the best, most intelligent setup, and the character creation process makes your character come to life. If you're both a Firefly fan and Role-Player... It's great.. I highly recommend it.
JewelStaiteFan: Thanks for responding.. I have gotten the most useful information from you and Bytemite... more so then from anywhere else. Also thanks for the link to Wydraz's stuff, there is a lot of cool stuff there.
So far I have seen 1 system, 2 system, and 5 system versions of the 'Verse... And several configurations of each type.
One of the best examples of the 1 system 'Verse is behind River's instructor in the movie. This is a system with twenty primary orbits and what appears to be several moons (big screen TV, and a lot of frame forward/frame back). Only two bodies are tagged, and whether or not these are helioformed brown dwarfs, or just worlds of interest, I don't know.
As for a 5 system version, Quantum Mechanix's "The Complete and Official Map of the 'Verse" is the best I have seen, and probably the one I'm going to go with (Partly because it is gorgeous, and I want one.. Can't have one version to play in, and another hanging on my wall).
Because of this, I realize that there will be a lot of inconsistencies, and I truly wish Whedon would have said "This is my 'Verse" (map included), and we could be done with it.
As for Core Worlds being inside of Halo... Where is Halo in the system? FireflyRPG.com has a two system map that places it similar to our own asteroid belt (somewhere middle-front). But Quantum Mechanix's map of White Sun, places it at the outer boundary of the system (therefore everything else orbits within). Their map also places Lux (with Persephone - Border World, and Pelorum) as the last White Sun orbiting body before the belt.
Santo orbits Qin Shi Haung (name of the first Chinese Emperor) which is itself the eight body in orbit around White Sun (confirmed multiple sources). But this places Santo between Londinium and Ariel.. Two known Core Worlds.
And there-in lies my problem... If all worlds within <"X", or White Sun, or the Halo Asteroid Belt> are Core Worlds, and all worlds from <"Y", or in orbit around Georgia and Red Sun, or those between the Halo Asteroid Belt and some other point> are Border Worlds, and all worlds from <"Z", or in orbit around Kalidasa and Blue Sun, or beyond a certain point> are Rim Worlds.. I'd have no problem.. But it doesn't work that way.
So I'm back to "What makes a Core World a Core World"...
It's not location (as explained above).. It's not terraform date or population either (per "The Verse in Numbers"). I'm left with a cultural/societal based answer.. Kind of like joining the United Federation of Planets.. Where you have to prove that your planet is "advanced" enough to qualify fo
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A few tips, Caz:
Have you read any of the Official Companions? One for Serenity, 2 for Firefly? The Serenity one does have more data on Planets, Verse history, etc. Because all are authored by Joss, I feel they have greater claim to canon than other sources.
Please provide source data for Ita Moon location. I have been looking for it, and MotV and White Paper do not have it. I have found much supposition, but nothing from the creators or other liscensed/sanctioned sources. I am interested in any truly valid source you've found.
When trying to decipher and interpret various conflicting sources, try to keep in mind some of them were suppositions produced before clarifying data was released. For instance, the Companion Books were not all released until 2008, and MotV not until Nov 2008. So check the dates of the sources and conjectures, the earlier ones may have less solid foundation. Many suppositions seem to have been derived from the appearance in scenes. But think of Earth today. Although the most advanced planet we know of, if you glimpsed Wyoming, Arizona deserts, remote Alaska, or many other barren locations Worldwide, would you think Earth was a Rim world? Keep in mind Mal sought out remote locations, essential for a successful smuggler - cities were more suited for thievery. The "Empty Rock" at the beginning of Trash was clearly not empty, for there was breathable air, it was terraformed, and no worlds are listed as both terraformed and no population. However, it was RELATIVELY empty, in that one location they rendezvoused.
When thinking of population, look also at population DENSITY - I found that of interest.
When considering location, you may be too focused on the orbital position, but forgetting the location in space. Consider a few assumptions for a moment: Ariel and Osiris might be in close proximity, relatively speaking, or in the same general arc of White Sun's space, or on the same side of White Sun, as well perhaps as Bellerophon. Then perhaps Santo is on the opposite side of White Sun (I'm not saying that is the fact). Ariel has a listed orbital duration of 93 years, Osiris is 50 years, and Santo is between. With all orbiting in the same direction (prograde), if Ariel and Osiris are nearby each other, how many centuries or millenia will elapse before they are NOT nearby, or before Santo has come around to the same side of White Sun as either one of them? Do you see? So, although they are moving in space, their proximity or relative location remains consistent.
I like to utilize The Writer's Resource Package thread in the Blue Sun Forum to get around this site, although I am not a writer.
Have you looked at some of the threads in Episode Forum? You might find some interesting or helpful info in threads 36389 (MotV), 38693 (Travel & Navigation), and a better understanding with the timelines in 36140, 32184, 31980.
Quote:
Originally posted by Cazaril:
JewelStaiteFan: Thanks for responding.. I have gotten the most useful information from you and Bytemite... more so then from anywhere else. Also thanks for the link to Wydraz's stuff, there is a lot of cool stuff there.
So far I have seen 1 system, 2 system, and 5 system versions of the 'Verse... And several configurations of each type.
One of the best examples of the 1 system 'Verse is behind River's instructor in the movie. This is a system with twenty primary orbits and what appears to be several moons (big screen TV, and a lot of frame forward/frame back). Only two bodies are tagged, and whether or not these are helioformed brown dwarfs, or just worlds of interest, I don't know.
The Map of the Verse is supposed to be based upon the mappings shown in Serenity - tink also fo the map River used to find Miranda. Several shots seem to be one system, but the zooming in obfuscated outer systems, so the shot shows one system at a time.
There are 2 kinds of MotV - Roll up and fold up. My Roll up has not yet exited the package, and my fold up has gotten nicked up a bit, lots of us
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Quote:
Osiris might be in close proximity, relatively speaking, or in the same general arc of White Sun's space, or on the same side of White Sun, as well perhaps as Bellerophon. Then perhaps Santo is on the opposite side of White Sun (I'm not saying that is the fact). Ariel has a listed orbital duration of 93 years, Osiris is 50 years, and Santo is between. With all orbiting in the same direction (prograde), if Ariel and Osiris are nearby each other, how many centuries or millenia will elapse before they are NOT nearby, or before Santo has come around to the same side of White Sun as either one of them? Do you see? So, although they are moving in space, their proximity or relative location remains consistent.
Yep. This was the point I was trying to make about drawing up a coordinate system and mapping the orbits of the planets to determine which could be closer and not to the Core worlds than might otherwise be anticipated with just rankings from orbital body.
However, I suspect even then there's going to be some rim worlds that inexplicably will be in the range of a border worlds, and border worlds that will be in the range of rim worlds, and Mirands looks like a damn core world (when it was populated), but that's almost certainly because Blue Sun and/or the Alliance invested in it heavily as a testing ground.
I think there's multiple factors involved in what makes a border and rim world, and it may seem pretty arbitrary to us. I think the most basic argument seems to be socio-economic status, and that correlates with location because of shipping and settling distance from Core. Not always, but for early and major "border worlds" I imagine that'll hold true. The idea of a "border" versus "rim" seems to come from an antiquated notion of distance from the core, and more planets have become terraformed, the original sense of the designation has been lost, but the designation is still used because of tradition.
Also, good point about Santo. For a casino planet it does look pretty vacant, doesn't it? Might just be Serenity visited a bad lands and not many people live there. Maybe it is still more like a border world (does the Alliance look down on gambling?) than a rim world.
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MotV = "The Complete and Official Map of the 'Verse" by Quantum Mechanix Inc?
Dr. Bourdier’s white paper = "The Verse in Numbers" version 1.1 by QMx
If this is correct.. Then Ita is listed as a moon of Whittier on page 75
Also before moving on... I want to clarify "confirmed separate sources".. What I was doing was looking for other sources that said the same thing (actually, I was looking for sources that gave me any hint of the information I needed). But it dawned on me late last night that; if source "A" posts something, and source "B" takes it as canon, and source "C" looks and sees that "A" and "B" say the same thing... It doesn't really mean that source "A" was correct. So I may stand correct on some of what I believed confirmed.
To answer one of your questions: No, I have not read any of the Companion books (things are a little too tight right now to afford them). My information is coming mainly from the following sources; Firefly the Series (including DVD bonus and commentary), Serenity the Movie (including DVD bonus and commentary, but not the Blu-Ray version), "The Complete and Official Map of the 'Verse" and the companion "The 'Verse in Numbers" by Quantum Mechanix Inc (Although my use of the map is mainly what I can make out from pictures and the web, again, coinage), The Serenity Role-Playing game, and what ever I can dig up online (including the scripts).
That having been said, I also have not read the Threads you suggested.. Since those I have access to, before going any further, I believe I will do that (read your post once, start this reply, then as I was re-reading your post, I got hooked into those threads. It'll take me a little while to get through them...)...
One final thing before I go again... You asked for a canon source that makes Santo not a Core world... Kaylee mentioned in Trash "First time in the Core....", but in Shindig they landed on Santo... Shindig was aired before Trash (both on TV and in the boxed set order). Plus, in Ariel, Mal keeps everyone on Serenity because it is a Core world, and states there "aren't any jobs worth having". But it is obvious that there were jobs to be had on Santo... So far this is supposition and conjecture.
My other source is the RPG, which lists Santo as a Border World.. Although it was released in 2005, and I don't know the pedigree of it as a canon source.
Be back soon...
Caz
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You are talking about Kaylee's line in reference to Santo.
I thought in Ariel, Mal did not allow the crew off the boat at first, but then started on the job and all volunteered to gooff the boat for tasks, and Wash and Kaylee were in the salvage yard, when Kaylee says "First time in the Core..." because she finally got to get off ship, but she's stuck salvaging.
Previously, at the Pool Parlor on Santo in Shindig, Wash and Kaylee were not allowed off the boat. Wash mentions to Simon in BDM Serenity that this is often the case.
On Persephone, they all are off the boat, shopping and such. I conjured this is how Kaylee is envisioning "In the Core" and not whether they parked and she never left the boat - that might not count in her mind.
Also, Ariel predates Trash, and Ariel was, I thought, clearly a Core World.
On Miranda, they clearly stated that this was a major city they were at, where the beacon signal led them, and they ahd passed over many other cities on the way. This implies there was much non-city, or rural or barren areas as well. On Santo Mal would not prefer to pickpocket in a big city where purplebellies are crawling all about. Miranda may have 30 million or billion, but it is a huge body, many other worlds terraformed much earlier were not as large, and although their density may be more, the total population would not be as much.
I have heard tell of browncoats finding the Companion Books provided by Public Libraries, through their loan programs.
Yes, MotV = abbrv. Map Of the Verse, and White Paper = new name The Verse in Numbers.
You seem to have more info than I have. I again just checked TViN and again on the Page for Whittier, which appears to be pg 75, there are no moons listed at all. I am referring to the online copy. Can you provide details on which version you are looking at which includes Ita info? Or even any info on Whittier Moons? Thanks so much for your head's up on new data.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cazaril:
MotV = "The Complete and Official Map of the 'Verse" by Quantum Mechanix Inc?
Dr. Bourdier’s white paper = "The Verse in Numbers" version 1.1 by QMx
If this is correct.. Then Ita is listed as a moon of Whittier on page 75
Also before moving on... I want to clarify "confirmed separate sources".. What I was doing was looking for other sources that said the same thing (actually, I was looking for sources that gave me any hint of the information I needed). But it dawned on me late last night that; if source "A" posts something, and source "B" takes it as canon, and source "C" looks and sees that "A" and "B" say the same thing... It doesn't really mean that source "A" was correct. So I may stand correct on some of what I believed confirmed.
Yes, forensic auditing of data can be a tricky process.
Quote:
To answer one of your questions: No, I have not read any of the Companion books (things are a little too tight right now to afford them). My information is coming mainly from the following sources; Firefly the Series (including DVD bonus and commentary), Serenity the Movie (including DVD bonus and commentary, but not the Blu-Ray version), "The Complete and Official Map of the 'Verse" and the companion "The 'Verse in Numbers" by Quantum Mechanix Inc (Although my use of the map is mainly what I can make out from pictures and the web, again, coinage), The Serenity Role-Playing game, and what ever I can dig up online (including the scripts).
That having been said, I also have not read the Threads you suggested.. Since those I have access to, before going any further, I believe I will do that (read your post once, start this reply, then as I was re-reading your post, I got hooked into those threads. It'll take me a little while to get through them...)...
One final thing before I go again... You asked for a canon source that makes Santo not a Core world... Kaylee mentioned in Trash "First time in the Core....", but in Shindig they landed on Santo... Shindig was aired before Trash (both on TV and in the boxed set order). Plus, in Ariel, Mal keeps everyone on Serenity because it is a Core world, and states there "aren't any jobs worth having". But it is obvious that there were jobs to be had on Santo... So far this is supposition and conjecture.
My other source is the RPG, which lists Santo as a Border World.. Although it was released in 2005, and I don't know the pedigree of it as a canon source.
Be back soon...
Caz
Hope those threads are helpful to you.
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Not much time... and I'll try to post later.. but thought this might help..
I got my copy of TViN here... https://store.quantummechanix.com/Complete-and-Official-Map-of-the-Ver
se_p_54.html
It's possible they updated without any announcement.
Caz
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Yep, that's a different linky through different channels for a different version. Thanks for the link. No gotta print that one out.
I did forget to mention that although the Map was released in Nov 2008, the White Paper upon which it was derived was not released until Feb 2009. So all contrived deductions about the Verse prior to then may be in conflict, and hence why I mentioned you can pay attention to the dates of sources.
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So after reading a bunch of that stuff, I have come to the following conclusions.
JewelStaiteFan: You have entirely too much time on your hands 
Other things I've learned...
There isn't enough information to really pin down the 'Verse... Things like "as of 2518, the planets are
I read the dissection you did of the map, postulating that the travel times could work, but that of course assumes the destinations are within a particular range. Without knowing, we can't know.
New Canon trumps Old Canon... and the hand of Whedon can trump everything. Meaning that we could work to pin down the 'Verse completely and accurately, and tomorrow, Whedon or somebody else could completely rearrange it.
A working theory is sometimes as good as the truth... I've reached the end of where I want to take it. Lacking significantly more data, all conclusions are crazy talk, so I'm just going to talk crazy.
My maps are done (not as nice as Wydraz's, but much more printer friendly). I'll got a decent grasp on the 5 system verse. I've got a working socio-economic theory about what makes a "Core World" a Core World (which explains why Santo isn't one - which I'm going to continue to work under the assumption of). Population density can explain why a world with a high population might be Rim instead of Border. And I'm going to run with it... Nothing I ever do will be considered Canon, so what difference does it make.
It's like waiting for the ultimate computer... At some point you have to just jump in and buy. What you end up with could be obsolete tomorrow, but if you wait, you'll never get do anything.
I appreciate the help.. I really do.. So thank you.
Caz
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