Monsters.
POSTED BY: Wulfenstar
UPDATED: Wednesday, August 26, 2026 20:52
VIEWED: 14016
PAGE 24 of 25
Miss Byte,
Quote:
Frem, your mentioning of the Hypothalamus/Amygdala and Pituitary kind of strikes me, I've thought for a while that I might have something wrong there.
I can usually nail that one with a single question.
Do you often get "catapulted" out of sleep after a mere three hours, and find yourself unable to sleep for up to 11-16 hours after even if you are still tired ?
I suspect that's not even a question to you.
You might find some ongoing research relative to it quite useful.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15471614
http://www.onderzoekinformatie.nl/en/oi/nod/onderzoek/OND1277207/
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/554738
Reason I mention this ties into why the need for that safe harbor or personal fortress is so damned important.
The HPA Axis has crash priority within the brains heirarchy, ok ?
Which means that once it is active all other systems are only allocated resource afterwords - even at a low level activation of HPA response, cogitation and internalising of thought and feeling are less functional.
And unfortunately for a Dark Spark, the presence of other humans is kind of an automatic activation cause the HPA Axis goes on a kind of automatic low level standby, causing a bunch of mental static related to threat response which in some children mimics ADD/ADHD and other behavioral disorder symptoms closely enough that without a longterm assessment most providers are loathe to give (and most insurance won't pay for) there's no way to tell the difference.
Lemme explain how the priority works, so you understand, ok ?
Say you're driving a car and discussing politics with a friend, the car hits a patch of ice and slides sideways - the HPA Axis lights up like a christmas tree, dumping a massive flood of chemical reactants into the system in a desperate fight-freeze-flight reaction - and also shuts off noncritical systems - at that moment you would be UNABLE to continue the discussion because that part of the brain is shut out, firewalled, inactive, you see ?
At it's *most* extreme, it's almost a euphoric state, time perception skews to where everything and everyone else is in slow motion, due to increased blood pressure and altered sensory focus, hearing drops out to something like a 60-cycle hum, language is perceived as noise and even visually the "threat" is hyperfocused with any non moving persons or objects in vision blurred out.
Pain sensitivity and response becomes almost nonexistent, and respiriation and heart rate scale up into what can potentially be dangerous levels, which in addition to the hum is often described as "the sound of drums" (heartbeat) by those who's consciousness does not block out the details of the event as a defense mechanism to prevent additional psychological trauma.
The latter is something learned from questioning of police, firefighter and EMT personnel who've displayed hyperdynamic behavior during a crisis, due to a prosecutors frustration with some officers who were unable to testify as to the details of what, exactly, happened - because their own mind blanked out the exact events or did not record them properly since the HPA Axis was given priority, which also functions as a post-event trauma preventing psychological defense.
On the other end, it's a low-level "static" which frustrates thought and function so long as there are other humans in range to trigger the threat response.
And of course it can, depending on the situation, run between those two extremes, but at any point it does interfere with the normal neurochem/psych responses of the brain and it's internal systems - worse, it has a tendancy to "hiccup" for no reason, or a minor alteration/interference with daily routine or unexpected hindrance (finding oneself out of dishwashing liquid when planning to do the dishes) and go into "alert" mode disproportionately to the threat, which means several hours of a hyperalert state which can in some individuals scale into a panic attack without apparent external cause.
Now, with an intermittent activation, and the
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Oh yes...
Re: Reflexive heroism and manipulation...
Yanno, it doesn't help having an ex who KNOWS that particular reflex is in there and is prone to playing damsel-in-distress to deliberately provoke it when she needs something.
Even worse is that my own inner trickster sees it for EXACTLY what it is and goes "Oh hey, that's pretty slick, innit ?" - and so the combination of those two factors kind of makes it a foregone conclusion.
In the short run, it means my ass will be moving furniture today, oh joy wonder...
-Frem
There always has to be a price.
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Quote:IMHO victims and their families usually get relief/ closure one of two ways:
we lose sight of the victim's experience. That's probably true. I believe victim's of crime do need to receive justice of some kind for their suffering - as well as trying to address underlying causes of criminal behaviour. Restorative justice is one way that this can happen.
1) Vengeance on the perps, which usually means a thirst for harsh punishment and/ or the death penalty and
2) Helping other victims.
It's not like vengeance is the only emotionally satisfying way to resolve victimhood, and of the two responses the second is far more constructive.
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@ Frem and Byte:
There are a couple of misconceptions in your recent posts about the HPA axis (I teach endocrinology and this area is one of my research interests). HPA is the acronym for Hypothalamo-Pituitary-Adrenal axis. The amygdala is a separate portion of the brain from the hyopothalamus, and may be related because it helps mediate emotions, but that's out of my area of expertise. The HPA axis controls only the adrenal cortex - the outer region - and is responsible for the secretion of cortisol, the famed "stress hormone" that is the cause of such stress-related pathologies as heart problems, immunosuppression, suppressed reproduction and others. It's not associated with water/thirst regulation. It also takes some time to activate because it involves a cascade of secretion of hormones from all 3 organs - a minimum of 2-3 minutes before you'd notice a response.
Frem, the response you a referring to on the occasion of hydroplaning (or even just seeing flashing red lights behind you when you are doing 110 on the freeway) comes in part directly from the central nervous system (CNS) but also in part from the adrenal gland, but the central portion, the medulla. Most of your innards are hooked up to the autonomic nervous system, which can very rapidly jump-start your heart rate, and increase blood pressure and sugar levels (this is the classic "fight or flight" syndrome). The adrenal medulla is also hooked up in the same manner, and rapidly starts pumping out large amounts of adrenaline and its sister hormone noradrenaline in a matter of seconds. These two hormones support the initial effects of the CNS. In truth, the HPA axis is activated at the same time, but there's a delay in response time because of the cascade.
Byte, The hormone that you are referring to is called aldosterone, and it also comes from the adrenal cortex (a separate layer), but it's not regulated by the HPA axis. It's regulated by a separate system that's too complicated to explain here, but it involves the kidney, liver and a blood pressure sensor. Aldosterone is a very potent stimulator of thirst, though, so it's possible that you undersecrete it. However, its primary function is water conservation - it increases water reabsorption from urine, which would argue in the opposite direction. In either case, I can't diagnose anything, not being a physician!
I hope this provides some clarification.
perfessergee
ETA. Frem, you are right about pain perception, memory effects and increased strength. They are influenced by both the HPA axis and the medulla simultaneously.
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"Most of your innards are hooked up to the autonomic nervous system ..."
Despite knowing about conditioned reflexes for decades (Pavlov), it just occurred to me about 10 years ago how weird they are.
Here you have a brain - which takes in and interprets stimuli - directly and reflexively influencing the autonomic nervous system over time. When you take into account that for people words are another form of stimuli, you can tap into the autonomic nervous system 'artificially'. A person who has no concept of a gun will not be afraid if one is pointed at them. A person who has never been shot or even shot at, who has no direct negative sensory experience, but who has been TOLD what one is, will. And they will experience all the attendent hormone secretions.
I find that very strange.
My first degree is biology. Where do you teach ? Do you allow people to audit your classes ? (sorry if this is pushy)
***************************************************************
Silence is consent.
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PERFESSERGEE
Man what I woulda gave to have known you back at the beginning of this.
You see, I have no real background in this, neither scientific or psych - in laymans terms imma jumped up street thug who by virtue of a crusade of destruction against abusive behavior modification facilities, wound up having to treat folks rescued from them, without any knowledge base initially beyond observation and response.
So knowing as much as I *DO* is practically a miracle, you understand ?
And I did say right up front I have only the barest technical understanding of the subject - it almost exclusively by virtue of trying to treat folks who no one else could...
Most of the folk we took outta there, they were pretty badly damaged, often physically as well as mentally, and being that mainstream psych personnel were often involved in getting them sent to these places, or even complicit in the abuse at them, there was flat out no way they could be treated by conventional methods due to that betrayal of trust, and without *some* kind of treatment they were all but doomed.
Just imagine the world shattering effect on a teen of being forcibly dragged from their own bed in the middle of the night and "renditioned" to what comes down to a freakin concentration camp using extremely abusive and destructive behavior-modification tactics - a living nightmare from which there is little or no hope of escape, which demolishes their trust in anything, even their own family.
That's not hyperbole, some of these places really were that bad, and I was a direct participant in collecting much of the evidence which proved it.
Anyhows, now take that kid trapped in a nightmare, and enter our team coming in for the rescue - initially this was pretty aggressive and destructive, but as more media and legal attention became focused on these places eventually boiled down to us presenting legal demands at the door, and them flinging the kid out to us, often as not right after loading them up REAL heavy on psychotropics so that they could discredit any testimony and the kids behavior would lend credence to their assessments.
The rescue and transport to whatever family member had commissioned it tended to form a rather strong attachment - and because of their experiences that was for many the ONLY trust-attachment they had at all, period.
And therefore any initial treatment HAD to come from that source, so it was either fumble through or leave them to their fate, which would defeat the purpose of the rescue in the first place.
Ergo, I have a *LOT* of experience dealing with very badly damaged people, to the point of almost instinctive, uncanny ability - but what technical/scientific knowledge I have is minimal, clobbered together from the research of others who have touched upon the same issues - problem is, while someone like Perry would do a better job, if they only have a trust attachment to one person and see all others as a threat, that one person HAS to do it.
So I am not likely to take offense to correction by someone with an actually educated idea of what the hell they're talkin about opposed to my "battlefield medicine" catch as can, imperfect understanding.
And yes, the upshift from the initial reaction to full on berserkerang does take about four minutes, or perhaps less - the time tends to "stretch out" at the end due to altered perception, so it may well be only 2-3 subjectively.
It's also not an on-off switch as it scales up gradually, live a motor revving into higher RPMs, I guess one could say.
It does indeed provide some clarification, as one element of what I refer to as the Dark Spark seems to be a constant trickle-dose of those hormones, what I call low level activation, and if such is the case that could be physically measured and tested, couldn't it ?
I wonder if anyone has tried - most of the research I've seen based around this was testing cortisol levels, which I am not sure would be sufficient of itself.
Anyhows, welcome to the discussion and feel free to add anything you know without
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So I guess we all agree... except maybe Wulf... that there are no monsters, just people with different neurologies, hormone sets and life experiences?
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Frem,
Please check your PM's in response to this post
perfessergee
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"Most of your innards are hooked up to the autonomic nervous system ..."
Despite knowing about conditioned reflexes for decades (Pavlov), it just occurred to me about 10 years ago how weird they are.
Here you have a brain - which takes in and interprets stimuli - directly and reflexively influencing the autonomic nervous system over time. When you take into account that for people words are another form of stimuli, you can tap into the autonomic nervous system 'artificially'. A person who has no concept of a gun will not be afraid if one is pointed at them. A person who has never been shot or even shot at, who has no direct negative sensory experience, but who has been TOLD what one is, will. And they will experience all the attendent hormone secretions.
I find that very strange.
.
This is a very good point. All of us critters with backbones respond to stressful events in the same way (i.e., we secrete the same hormones). If you harass a fish, it will secrete the exact same hormones as a human. But, I doubt you could tell a fish that you were going to harass it and elicit a response, whereas humans would. The cognitive link for people is critical. Having a jerk for a boss in the workplace can elicit the same stress response as physical abuse. This is something corporate culture hasn't taken into account - it probably costs very much money in health care and lost productivity, but I don't know of any studies of this, despite the well-known health consequences of chronic stress. It would be very interesting (to me the biologist) to see the hormonal effects of job insecurity in the current marketplace. Maybe I should start studying humans............
perfessergee
PS please check your PM's
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Oh, bleh - I cannot receive PMs, PERFERSSERGEE - the email addy attached to this account has been dead for years.
If it *really* needs privacy I can sort a dead-drop box for ya, maybe.
Siggy
Quote:
So I guess we all agree... except maybe Wulf... that there are no monsters, just people with different neurologies, hormone sets and life experiences?
Not quite - while there are mostly "just people" (and wasn't it Joss who said people were scarier than any aliens, yes ?) you do on occasion run into something... else.
Imma refer you to a bit by Ellis Amdur here which sticks with me cause I've met folks that far off the end myself before.
Satsujin no Ken - Katsujin no Ken
The Sword that Takes Life, the Sword that Gives Life
http://www.vachss.com/guest_dispatches/ellis_amdur.html
(Quoted slightly out of order for clarity)
Quote:
When I interviewed that boy, I knew what he was capable of doing. I had no expectation that treatment would help him, but that was the best suggestion I could come up with. I knew he would, sooner or later, do something horrible to some poor child.
Am I a moral failure in that I did not kill him?
That's a question that haunts me too - to which my answer has been to do my utmost, and beyond, in efforts to prevent the creation of someone so internally wrecked they can hardly even be considered "human" anymore, to whom treatment would be as cruel as murder because of what they have already done, and the impossibility of living with that knowledge if sanity was returned to them.
And then there are those who make an active, conscious CHOICE to follow a path of evil, who derive joy and satisfaction from enabling oppression of people they don't like, or crave the respect and adulation of the power elite...
You know, the kind of people without whom, tyranny cannot occur - I don't mean the ignorant, I mean the people who KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THEY ARE DOING, and actively, intentionally chose it on purpose.
There's no excuse, it's beyond inhumane, it's downright insentient.
And I do not, once they have made that choice, consider them human whatever, since by their actions they have abandoned any claim to that legacy.
But yeah, mostly just messed up people - thing is, the tiny fraction of the two facets described about does a huge percentage of the damage.
WHO IS THE SERIOUS, VIOLENT, HABITUAL OFFENDER?
http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/lifestyle.html
Quote:
The second characteristic is lack of perception of the future. He has none. If you ask a kid like this, "What are you going to be doing next year?" you will get an absolutely blank stare. Not because he's stupid, but because he simply cannot conceptualize such a distance from right now. If you want to speak with this kid, you have to speak within his time frame, and that time frame isn't ever more than a few hours from the present.
These particular types are WHY I carry a piece - no future possibility of incarceration or punishment, no empathy or negotiation works on them, the ONLY defense you have against them is a direct and imminent threat to their person, and even that is only sufficient to secure an escape route if you do not intend to kill them.
And this speech, made back in 1982, as I recall, is extremely relevant to the exact topic here from top to bottom.
Quote:
This kid does not relate behavior to consequences. He does not see a causal connection between his acts and a response. What do I mean? To this kid, life is a lottery. Everyone rolls the dice, but not everyone pays the price. He has no perception as to how the dice will come up. In his world, everyone commits crimes. Everybody. Some smaller percentage of that number are arrested. A still smaller percentage go to court; an even smaller percentage go to trial. A smaller percentage still are actually found guilty (or "adjudicated delinquent" if you prefer), and a smaller percentage of that group are committed to a youth authority. Lastly, an even smaller percentageNOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME