Monsters.

I'm a human genetic experiment. I share with someone the exact same genes and (presumably) in utero environment. My clone and I have many traits in common- sometimes scarily so. Our biomechanics are almost exactly the same: we laugh the same, we have the same gestures, we both have problems with "stuck song", and often the same phrase will pop into our heads at the same time if we're looking at the same situation. We're both shy. But we have some surprising differences. She has always been taller, stronger, and smarter than me. And when it comes to temper and attention-span, we're very very different.

Things happen during development not at all related to genes or even in utero environment. And I believe that, yes, kids... even "normal" kids... ARE born with a personality, however that personality came to be. Some kids are quiet and reflective, others are boisterous. Some are observant. Some hear well, some are sensitive to the feelings of others, some blunder through their environment looking for excitement, some are shy, and some can't sit still and are frustrated. That personality interacts with the caregivers' personalities in negative or positive ways, which many times creates self-reinforcing cycles- a depressed child may stress already depressed parents who then withdraw, a defiant child may elicit the force/ resistance cycle from an authoritarian parent. Its a complex interaction, like diabetes in an environment full of addictive junk food. I can't claim to understand even a fraction of it, but this complex interaction goes a long way to explaining why many abused children grow up pretty average while others who grew up in average circumstances may not feel average when they grow up.

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And I see the conversation has moved far!

Niki, check your PMs.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
I'm a human genetic experiment. I share with someone the exact same genes and (presumably) in utero environment. My clone and I have many traits in common- sometimes scarily so. Our biomechanics are almost exactly the same: we laugh the same, we have the same gestures, we both have problems with "stuck song", and often the same phrase will pop into our heads at the same time if we're looking at the same situation. We're both shy. But we have some surprising differences. She has always been taller, stronger, and smarter than me. And when it comes to temper and attention-span, we're very very different.

Things happen during development not at all related to genes or even in utero environment. And I believe that, yes, kids... even "normal" kids... ARE born with a personality, however that personality came to be. Some kids are quiet and reflective, others are boisterous. Some are observant. Some hear well, some are sensitive to the feelings of others, some blunder through their environment looking for excitement, some are shy, and some can't sit still and are frustrated. That personality interacts with the caregivers' personalities in negative or positive ways, which many times creates self-reinforcing cycles- a depressed child may stress already depressed parents who then withdraw, a defiant child may elicit the force/ resistance cycle from an authoritarian parent. Its a complex interaction, like diabetes in an environment full of addictive junk food. I can't claim to understand even a fraction of it, but this complex interaction goes a long way to explaining why many abused children grow up pretty average while others who grew up in average circumstances may not feel average when they grow up.

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Nicely put. Yes, I'd agree with pretty much all of what you say. You twins - you enlighten us all.

We're not really off topic either - we're discussing the concepts of 'monsters'.

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Niki

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One thing not mentioned is "attachment disorder" (not sure if that's the right term), of children who don't get nurturing early on and how it can affect them to the point where it can't be changed. I think that's something accepted as being behind psychopathy; the inability to empathize, etc. But is it a brain/chemical disorder, or behavioral?

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Actually both, over time, one BECOMES the other.

Here's the technical data, courtesy of Doc Perry and CTA.
http://www.childtrauma.org/CTAMATERIALS/Attach_ca.asp
http://www.childtrauma.org/CTAMATERIALS/neuros~1.asp
http://www.childtrauma.org/ctamaterials/Neuroarcheology.asp

Problem is that when it goes into the details and technical aspects most folks don't have the background to really grok it - only reason I do is years of dealing with those people and finding solutions for them outside the scope of conventional medicine and psychology.


Wulf - Don't piss me off, until you realize just how these folk who do such awful things come to be, and YOUR OWN ROLE in formenting the very denial that allows our society to continue to create them, you've no proper business discussing the matter since you lack both the understanding to address the problem, and the inclination to develop it.

So either buy a fucking clue and discard the bullshit ideology that you damn well know was fed to you with ill intent, by the same folk who lied to you about everything else - or keep your two cents in your own wallet, kiddo.

Expect no sympathy for the ripping you're catching this time around.


MAGONSDAUGHTER
Actually all of my knowledge of this rests on a combination of well over twenty years of empirical experience backed up by the research of wiser folk with better educations like Alice Miller and Doc Perry.

I learned a lot of it by observation, by more or less watching how these folk come to be all around me in my own environment and realizing it's effects on myself as well in a toxic and hostile environment that tended to bring about these kind of results in children who already had issues or were vulnerable for other reasons.

I learned even more by trying to help folk written off as beyond any hope, people who had been all but psychologically destroyed, or damaged in ways that forced them to all but start from scratch - mostly I watched them self destruct, but those I did manage to pull back from the brink...
That's the one shining light which keeps the horror at bay for me.

You are correct in that we *NEED* to learn more, cause we sure as hell don't know enough now to be of much help to these people on the scale that we should be.

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There is also absolutely no evidence (that I have seen) that one is born with these traits - only that a combination of both nature (temperament) and nurture (parenting or lack of it) may result in these personality traits being evident.

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That is what I was tryin to say, and might not have gotten across so clear - genetics can load the gun, but environment is what pulls the trigger on it.
The key is being aware of it early enough to drive that train off the rails BEFORE it comes to a crisis, something I am all too familiar with in the case of my one niece, and feel damned horrible about.
I KNEW the factors were there, and despite my best efforts she found herself in very much the same environment (hell they even sent her to the same damn school!) but at least she has a "helping witness" to aid her steps, so far as I can do so from several hundred miles away.
http://www.alice-miller.com/articles_en.php?lang=en&nid=41&grp=11

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Using violence is not necessarily a sign of sociopathy - aggression is a survival trait that we all have. If we live somewhere that demands aggression to survive, then a normal response is to be aggressive. That is definitely a learned behaviour.

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Ah, on this I was speaking of something else - see, the "line" that gets crossed, the trigger, with some damaged people may not be immediately apparent to someone externally, and crossing it unawares ca

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Niks

I have this sense though that depression and other painful/ uncomfortable neurological states - might act like abuse. After all, abuse is on its own timetable and not consistently related to action. It isn't constant. It comes and goes. And despite the mitigation people experience, it does have its effects.

It seems like there could be similar responses going on.

Any thoughts ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Frem, your mentioning of the Hypothalamus/Amygdala and Pituitary kind of strikes me, I've thought for a while that I might have something wrong there.

Something else, I just read that the HPA axis is responsible for releasing a hormone in response to dehydration, a "water conservation hormone."

I don't really notice my own thirst often, and I drink very few fluids. I can do strenuous hiking, 1,000 to 2,000 feet elevation gain and several miles in 80 to 100 degree weather for hours (in Utah, a desert) with only sixteen ounces of water. When I was hiking in groups for my geology classes, I always had plenty of water to share with people who ran out and drink five times as much as I do. I never experienced any adverse dehydration effects from taxing myself this way, though recently I found out that I have signs of developing kidney stones.

Is it possible for the chicken to go before the egg? Could I be overproducing this hormone (and others governed by the HPA axis), and that is causing me to feel like I need less water? Could this be a symptom of the other problem?

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I think we've had this conversation before, haven't we? I don't want to butt into your experiences in any way, I'm talking theoretically what I know through my work and training. You've indicated that you have had a difficult past, with plenty of tough stuff to deal with. However, though what you have indicated, you don't seem like you fit any definition of sociopath/psychopath that I have come across, given your insight, capacity to change, remorse, lack of lying and manipulation.

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We might have, I have an exceedingly poor memory.

I wasn't always this calm or reasonable.

And in regards to manipulation, now that I think of it, I'd like to amend my earlier statements.

I'm still not much of a liar, but when I was younger, I was exceptionally skilled at making adults feel guilty for punishing me, and also at getting adults to exact my revenge on people who caused me grief.

I may unwittingly be more manipulative than I realize. I can think of one situation recently that I think my actions could be considered manipulative, though I'd also like to think that my actions were justified and not malicious. Of course, that's what everyone would like to hope. I'll have to watch this closer.

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I didn't mean to suggest that you thought Wulf was a socio/psychopath either. I don't think he is - he's expressing a populist view that's ill informed. Perhaps it seems to him that by focusing on the perp and what they have been through, we lose sight of the victim's experience. That's probably true. I believe victim's of crime do need to receive justice of some kind for their suffering - as well as trying to address underlying causes of criminal behaviour. Restorative justice is one way that this can happen.

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I agree, good explanation.

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