Don'tcha love their 'logic'?
POSTED BY: Niki2
UPDATED: Friday, October 30, 2009 03:04
VIEWED: 11384
PAGE 17 of 19
Quote:It is. Enough books have been written on the topic to fill a section of library shelves, and if you look at the topic of economics in general, you could fill a small library.
I don't feel much more enlightened now than when I started this discussion. Except in this- I don't think anyone ought to be shaking their head at anyone else for not knowing what these words mean. It seems to be subject to interpretation.
But I believe we ARE more enlightened than before, because at least we know that the definition is not an easy one, and we've questioned our assumptions. To me, that's progress.
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Quote:Not by me, so why are you singling me out???
Siggy. You making that remark is about the funniest thing I've seen here in quite some time. I tried being topical at the top of this post and, since I didn't sing the same song as the choir, got called "Dick" for not being agreeable
Quote:Your assumption about the availability of healthcare to pre-existing conditions was way off the mark. I also followed that comment up with two very concrete, personal examples demonstrating that you were wrong... comments that you didn't refute. The person not being topical here is ....???
and someone (now who could that have been?) responded with "ahhh... ahhHHH... aaAHHHHHH... AHHHHHH!!!... BULLSHOID! 'Scuse me! That was a sneeze, not a comment!". So following your example is wrong?
Quote:Which outlier defintion are you referring to, Geezer? Instead of arguing by insinuation, just make your point, and make it honestly.
It is, isn't it. And it gets even more difficult when folks with an agenda to advance go shopping for an outlier definition
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Quote:I think yes, yes, and it depends.
Well, that's a good question, Rue. Is making a little money, or making ends meet a little better, by selling eggs on the side a business? What if the neighbor's kid is hired to pick all the fruit, and then I have a garage sale where I sell the fruit? Is that a business? And would this be outlawed in a socialist style of government, if the government is supposed to control all means of production?
Yes, its a business if you sell eggs on the side. No, its not capitalism if you are the owner AND the worker at the same time. Even in Russia, when farms were collectivized, people had their small plots of land which they cultivated. It doesn't even begin to look like capitalism until you start paying somebody else- in money- for their work. Whether or not it would be outlawed by a socialist economy or not would depend on how strictly the economy is regulated. It seems to me than an exception should be made for small businesses (under 5 people) because this size seems unlikely to engender the huge discrepancy in wealth and power which businesses and monopolies enjoy.
I personally would like to see everything larger than about 5 people to be organized as a cooperative business (a business of co-owners), and certain businesses which are necessarily large and virtual monopolies (eg power transmission, water supply, sanitation, roads, canals, communications etc) to be government-run.
BTW, in doing some reading, I found that even Adam Smith assumed that these "larger" fuctions (transportation etc) would be government-run, so even Adam Smith didn't advocate laissez-faire capialism.
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River,
lol
Actually, yes, but I read it wasn't so much money, that you could get Bush as a consultant for $19. Sarah Palin is running for president, so of course they're taking her seriously. Someone is putting her up to it, probably to split the xtian vote. I'm banking on them miscalculations and not taking in the mayan 2012 factor, and she might actually win.
Joementum is just whining for attention.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"Hello, Well, does scale matter?"
I was putting it into a different context to help me think about it. Something which might be hard to categorize in one form might be easier to categorize in a more familiar form.
It comes down to - is the chicken coop a business ?
***************************************************************
Silence is consent.
Hello,
Well, that's a good question, Rue. Is making a little money, or making ends meet a little better, by selling eggs on the side a business?
What if the neighbor's kid is hired to pick all the fruit, and then I have a garage sale where I sell the fruit? Is that a business?
And would this be outlawed in a socialist style of government, if the government is supposed to control all means of production?
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
Hello,
I have lived places where you were only, by city ordnance, allowed to have a certain number of garage sales a year, or you were considered a "business". So if you were selling eggs at your "garage sale", you'd actually be a roadside stand, and therefore likely be a business.
I doubt that this is the kind of thing that would be outlawed in a socialist society; I think the idea there is that the government controls the MAJOR means of production, not every single individual means of production. Although it should be noted that it has in many cases been outlawed in a supposed "free market" capitalist society like ours. By law in most places, you can only do a certain dollar amount of "business" before you must start ACTING like a business. These laws are generally lobbied for by businesses. Often by very large businesses, who don't want any small upstarts trying to actually COMPETE with them.
Mike
Let the wild rumpus start!
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Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
"Not true. 30% of all (private) insurance dollars go to profit, exec salaries and benefits, and paperwork. Take that off the top and insurance becomes cheaper. And if there is a public OPTION you may OPT to use it. In which case you may OPT for the cheaper insurance."
Hello,
I am pleased with the idea of having *optional* insurance provided by the government. I enjoy the thought of having freedom of choice. More choices can only be better.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
I'm pleased by the idea of having options, too. I'd like to see a non-profit option, a single-payer option, the option of being able to join an insurance co-op, etc. We'll have to see how it all shakes out, won't we?
Mike
Let the wild rumpus start!
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Not by me, so why are you singling me out???
I'm not. There's plenty of your cronies, as well as you, who use insult rather than topical response.
Quote:
Your assumption about the availability of healthcare to pre-existing conditions was way off the mark.
If that's your opinion then why not just argue the merits of your case rather than starting with the obligatory insult?
I get the feeling that your ideal RWED would be as follows:
PN posts stuff which everyone reads but ignores.
Every once in a while, someone posts "Capitalism (or Insurance Companies, or Bill Gates, or whatever) is Evil". The chorus responds with "Yea verily. Evil. Evil. Most evil indeed." If any apostate has the temerity to question this pronouncement, the cries of "Blasphemer", "Unmutual", "Dick", "Corporatist", etc. rain down until the unbeleiver decides it's not worth their time, and leaves. Peace and Kumbayas return and everyone feels justified.
Oh, and back to topic. The difference between you and a capitalist is that a capitalist wants folk to give him money in exchange for goods and services. You just want folk to give you money. If they don't, you expect the government to force them to give you money.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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I'd like to see the sticker price on the product (the us healthcare system) go down from $4T, not up. Quality could us some work to.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Not by me, so why are you singling me out???
I'm not. There's plenty of your cronies, as well as you, who use insult rather than topical response.Quote:
Your assumption about the availability of healthcare to pre-existing conditions was way off the mark.
If that's your opinion then why not just argue the merits of your case rather than starting with the obligatory insult?
I get the feeling that your ideal RWED would be as follows:
PN posts stuff which everyone reads but ignores.
Every once in a while, someone posts "Capitalism (or Insurance Companies, or Bill Gates, or whatever) is Evil". The chorus responds with "Yea verily. Evil. Evil. Most evil indeed." If any apostate has the temerity to question this pronouncement, the cries of "Blasphemer", "Unmutual", "Dick", "Corporatist", etc. rain down until the unbeleiver decides it's not worth their time, and leaves. Peace and Kumbayas return and everyone feels justified.
Oh, and back to topic. The difference between you and a capitalist is that a capitalist wants folk to give him money in exchange for goods and services. You just want folk to give you money. If they don't, you expect the government to force them to give you money.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
Yeah, Geezer, at least you're not being INSULTING, right?
What would YOUR idea RWED look like?
PN posts stuff which everyone reads but ignores.
Every once in a while, someone posts "Capitalism (or Insurance Companies, or Bill Gates, or whatever) wins again - YAY!". The chorus responds with "Yea verily. Evil. Evil. Most evil indeed." If any apostate has the temerity to question this pronouncement, the cries of "Terrorist", "Un-American", "Dick", "Communist", etc. rain down until the unbeleiver decides it's not worth their time, and leaves. Peace and Kumbayas return and Geezer feels justified.
Of course, in your dream RWED, you'd also get to whine and complain about people namecalling and being insulting, by insulting them and calling them names. And you absolutely would not see the hypocrisy inherent in your own actions.
Mike
Let the wild rumpus start!
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Mike,
very few real world events are discussed here. Mostly it's politics, an imaginary system where arbitrary collections of beliefs are assembled into sides so the people can bash each other over the head, which they do here daily. Thanks for lending a hand [/snark]
But seriously, the real illusion, besides the one that any of this issue debating has any effect on policy, is that there should be any policy at all. Politics is a completely artificial system, like the monetary system, or the Church, with no more reality than a game of Dungeons and Dragons. If we stop believing in it, it will go away. Much like addiction in that way.
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