Don'tcha love their 'logic'?
POSTED BY: Niki2
UPDATED: Friday, October 30, 2009 03:04
VIEWED: 11384
PAGE 16 of 19
Hello,
It's becoming increasingly hard for me to nail down precisely what socialism and capitalism are. Every time someone tells me "Socialism is X and Capitalism is Y" there seems to be some kind of contradiction, caveat, or exception. My web sources vary widely in what they consider Capitalism and Socialism to be, and words like Mercantilism used in this thread seem to have widely different meanings in online encyclopedias.
I don't feel much more enlightened now than when I started this discussion. Except in this- I don't think anyone ought to be shaking their head at anyone else for not knowing what these words mean. It seems to be subject to interpretation.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Sig,
This is pretty on target, and capitalism is a pretty appalling system. Not generally as bad as socialism, but probably a close second.
A couple points to nitpick:
1. The commoditization of land was the more radical step. This is why America was destroyed, and slavery was instituted: To convert America that was into money through cash crops such as cotton and tobacco.
2. Capitalism has its origins in ancient Egypt. It was inherited by the Roman Empire after the conquest of Egypt. Initially, Egypt had a wheat-trade based system, which was abstract trade but not capitalism, since it wasn't generationally persistent.
It was the switch to the gold standard, which probably came from the influence of the Saharan Mande civilization that transformed ancient Egypt into a persistent capitalist society. Rome took this, the greek system of fiat coinage of abstract value, and created the corporation, making the capitalist system as we know it today. Capitalism suffered a pretty major blow in the industrial revolution, as for the first time, people outside of the status quo were capable of generating enormous amounts of wealth. This was squashed through the creation of the stock markets, which allowed capital, ie, the banks, to own industry, and also through nationalization, which allowed monarchies and later socialist states, to own industry. Now capitalism has another major setback: The information revolution.
We do live in interesting times. Remember, no matter what incoming bent you may have towards all these loaded words, all are to be looked at with utmost scrutiny. A lot of people support socialism because it is preached in universities by socialists, but it's really little more than a religion, where the state takes the place of god. Part of the problem here is that we live in a society of false dichotomies: Coke vs. Pepsi. The reality is you can like or dislike both, in fact, they are so similar, it makes little sense to do anything but like or dislike both, but we are pushed to choose one over the other. Ergo, just because capitalism is evil, doesn't make socialism good. If anything, going on the historic record, socialism is more evil, but that by itself will not lead me to support capitalism.
I see free trade and the free market as separate from either. We need some form of abstract exchange, because barter falls apart when you think about it: I need some roofing done. Sure, I have a lot of skills, but what if the roofer really wants a new car. I can't build him one. This would get incredibly complicated very quickly. Still, we shouldn't have a system that allows persistent wealth to be passed down through the generations, or anything to be able to be destroyed simply to turn it into abstract capital, nor should absolute power to be trusted to anyone, or a system of universal cooperation be enforced to the point where we all must fall in line with our leaders, especially lest they be insane, which seems to be eerily common.
just my two cents
ETA:
Take George W. Bush vs. Saddam Hussein. I would consider these to be very run of the mill capitalist and socialist leaders. I can find much much worse, as well as much better, leaders, but they both betray the flaws in their systems.
No one in their right mind would want either one. It's easy to say "Well, we could have a better capitalist/socialist." Well, sure, you could. But you could also have much worse. You really can't rely on just getting a better leader, it's always going to be a role of the dice. I'm holding out for a much better system: One in which a bad leader doesn't automatically result in rampant death, destruction and economic collapse.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
So, Geezer, do you have anything TOPICAL to say??
Of course not.
You just hope to make the message go away by attacking the messenger. As usual.
Siggy. You making that remark is about the funniest thing I've seen here in quite some time.
I tried being topical at the top of this post and, since I didn't sing the same song as the choir, got called "Dick" for not being agreeable, and someone (now who could that have been?) responded with "ahhh... ahhHHH... aaAHHHHHH... AHHHHHH!!!... BULLSHOID! 'Scuse me! That was a sneeze, not a comment!". So following your example is wrong?
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,
It's becoming increasingly hard for me to nail down precisely what socialism and capitalism are...
It is, isn't it. And it gets even more difficult when folks with an agenda to advance go shopping for an outlier definition that fits in with their pre-conceptions (easy to find on the Net), require everyone else to accept that definition without question, and then use it to "prove" their argument.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Joey Lieberman has emerged from hiding under his "I support McCain rock" to play spoiler against Govt. healthcare.
Sarah Palin's un-released "book" is shattering pre-order records, and she is being discussed by the pundits almost in a serious way.
George Bush is now on a lecture circuit, speaking about leadership and God, and people are paying a lot of money to hear him.
HAS A PAX-ISH CHEMICAL BEEN RELEASED INTO THE AIR?
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No, but there's been a lot of fluoride put in the water.
Ooooooh.
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"Hello, Well, does scale matter?"
I was putting it into a different context to help me think about it. Something which might be hard to categorize in one form might be easier to categorize in a more familiar form.
It comes down to - is the chicken coop a business ?
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Silence is consent.
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"Insurance for everyone is gonna cost everyone more money ..."
Not true. 30% of all (private) insurance dollars go to profit, exec salaries and benefits, and paperwork. Take that off the top and insurance becomes cheaper. And if there is a public OPTION you may OPT to use it. In which case you may OPT for the cheaper insurance.
"... (except the folks the government gives it to for free, which ain't gonna be you or me)."
The ones who need their insurance to be free - already get it through the government. You are already paying for them, except in the most expensive way - ERs and medical crises.
In another thread I linked a long article about WHAT drives health costs up. And it is doctors who are practicing medicine to make as much money as possible, and not to get their patients as healthy as possible. That means more tests (especially if they own a stake in the lab or bought the imaging equipment), more procedures like surgeries and treatments, and less co-ordination with other doctors. The Cleveland Clinic, which provides some of the best care aound, also has some of the lowests costs. And extremely expensive care by money-motivated doctors gets worse results.
Those are the FACTS - as opposed to your usual bullshit.
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Silence is consent.
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"Hello, Well, does scale matter?"
I was putting it into a different context to help me think about it. Something which might be hard to categorize in one form might be easier to categorize in a more familiar form.
It comes down to - is the chicken coop a business ?
***************************************************************
Silence is consent.
Hello,
Well, that's a good question, Rue. Is making a little money, or making ends meet a little better, by selling eggs on the side a business?
What if the neighbor's kid is hired to pick all the fruit, and then I have a garage sale where I sell the fruit? Is that a business?
And would this be outlawed in a socialist style of government, if the government is supposed to control all means of production?
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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"Not true. 30% of all (private) insurance dollars go to profit, exec salaries and benefits, and paperwork. Take that off the top and insurance becomes cheaper. And if there is a public OPTION you may OPT to use it. In which case you may OPT for the cheaper insurance."
Hello,
I am pleased with the idea of having *optional* insurance provided by the government. I enjoy the thought of having freedom of choice. More choices can only be better.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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